The American Civil War mod for HOI 2 DD Armageddon

[Ankios]

PLEASE : Before posting, read the first post. If this one does not answer you're question, please ask.

Learn what you will live in this mod with this early tactica for the mod !http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10449539&postcount=59

Version Française de ce topic sur ce lien / French version of this thread here




Loading screen​

Welcome on the American Civil War mod for HoI 2 DDA !

In mid-november 2009, I began to work on this mod. It is a real bet for me as it is the first mod I am working on.

The status of the developpement is the following (even if it is always hard to talk about those things) :

Map building : Around 70 % (Only north america will be in the final version)

USA 1860 map : 95 %

Events building : 5%

Graphisms building : 38%

Texts building : 5%

Units building : 8%

Tech modding : 15%

First Beta release : december 5, 2009

Download the beta v0.1

Second beta release : around January 15th 2010

What to expect in the second beta version : http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10606419&postcount=117

Final release : TBA​

Features in this mod : ​

High historicity and realism, to place you in the same situation both sides had to live with. Can you remake history ?

Tons of events to show the tensions rising between the USA and the CSA.

High historicity content, without bias !!! Live all the political debate and constructions in the Union and in the CSA by lots of readings in the first release version. Later on, you will have the possibility to make your own political choices from the foundation of the Confederation to political tactics to influence states to have them on your side at the begining of the war !

What does "Without bias" mean ?

Well simply the fact that I don't want the mod to be pro one side or pro the other. It means that the Union will have events and setups with text pro-Union and anti-secession. And the Confederation will also have texts of events and setups pro-secession and pro-Dixie. If you don't want to see or read opinion of one of those sides, just don't play it !

However, no form of racism will take place in this mod. There were debates about slavery back then. All those debates in the mod will have an economical eye. But it will clearly be said that whites, afro-Americans or blacks in general and Indian-Americans are equal as humans. If you are in anyway against that, well 1) don't play this mod and 2) go somewhere else I do not care about what you think.

Feel the period with a real "Civil war time" ambiance in the game.

Alternate historical events in the release version. Could CSA have lost the war with an alliance with UK and France ? What abut a Mexican intervention/revenge against the CSA to profit from this war ? This will be possible in the second release of the mod (not second beta, second release. As much as lots of people wants it, the priority is to give you a running mod on civil war. Then alternate historical events will come up).

Why is this mod interesting ?

Well, there is no hundreds of games on the civil war. But one thing I am sure of is that I personnaly never find a grand strategic game to play it that I really liked. In the mean time, I never found a grand strategic game to play WWII that I really liked until I tried HoI 2 a few years ago. I just hope this mod can propose to you an historic and still open ended and fun gameplay bringing the HoI 2 gameplay with the great ACW background.

How is this mod original ?

As I don't want to release all the features I want to put in it for now, I will display time to time some features I (IMHO) think should at the end make this mod a great scenario for HoI 2 DD A.

Currently, one of the thing I clearly like in this game is the freedom states have. As you can see on the screenshot, every single of the "US territories" from this period exists independently. And so does US States that decided to join the Union in 1861 but could clearly have joined the CSA because of their salve state status : Kentucky and Missouri.

Why do I like that ? Well it brings some "balance" and is more accurate with history than simply having Missouri, Kentucky, and territories, in the Union or the CSA. The Union "miss" those states for months, like in the reality. In a more advanced version, those will have to choose through events which side they are on. And I think the fact they are not into the Union/CSA represent more accuratly the fact there were lots of political debates in those states about the war. So they were not clearly engaged on one side. And independent IC is more realistic is the early game. Like that, those states don't bring production (and troops) to one side or the other until they choose.

And on "independant" territories, well it makes war there more realistic, as war in not owned territories is always harder for both sides.

When do you plan to release this mod ?


TBA, and clearly not soon for the final version. There is still lots of work to do. However I hope I will be able to release a first beta version soon. That way, it will be easier for me to improve the mod, making it more balanced and accurate with reality.

The initial map of the US, December 25th 1860. South Carolina decided to secede from the Union five days ago. The union is in turmoil. Anything can happen​

 

[serutan]

What is your start date? I have several potential comments on your setup, but they are strongly dependent on the start date.

 

[Ankios]

December 25th, 1860, the day after the independance of South Carolina. However for easier setup, at that date the whole CSA is already independant. That may change with time.

 

[serutan]

OK here are my initial comments:

1) Just work on the US, with perhaps some events which give the CSA supplies and/or resources to simulate what the blockade
runners brought in from Europe.

2) As to the territories : The loyalty of Washington, Idaho, Nevada and Colorado were not in question, so I don't like them being independent. Given how sparsely settled these territories were, anything that's not blue or gray on your map, except KY and MO, should have 0 IC, and poor infrastructure.

3) Kansas was admitted to the Union in 1861, and its population was overwhelmingly (and militantly) loyal to the Union.
It has to be blue.

4) You might consider splitting Arizona and New Mexico - northern half (Delano Peak, Phoenix, Santa Fe, Albuqurque, Los Alamos) to the Union, southern half to the CSA.

5) While I'm not crazy about Utah being independent, it doesn't do a bad job of simulating its complete uselessness
to the cause, or of Brigham Young & Co.'s less than complete loyalty.

6) With regard to Kentucky and Missouri, it's a bit of a poser. While independence doesn't *really* reflect the true situation, as with Utah it is probably the most accurate way to simulate it within the game. What sort of events were you thinking of to decide which way these states went?

I suggest all Union land commanders start with skill 0, all major general. CSA land commanders start skill 1, all major general.
This reflects the inexperience of all officers in commanding more than a regiment, and that the Confederate commanders
were in general superior to their Union counterparts initially.

Tech team suggestions for the Union :

Land Doctrine - Winfield Scott (expires at end of 1862), Montgomery Meigs, Hermann Haupt (1863)
Naval Doctrine - Gustavus Fox
Industrial - B&O Railroad, Du Pont, J.D. Rockefeller
Naval - John Ericsson, New York Shipyard
Artillery - John Dahlgren
Infantry - Springfield Armory, Samuel Colt

Tech team suggestions for the Confederacy :

Land Doctrine - Robert E. Lee, Nathan Beford Forrest
Naval Doctrine - Gustavus Fox
Industrial - Tredegar Iron Works, Memphis & Charleston Railroad.
Naval - Norfolk Shipyard
Infantry - Fayetteville Arsenal

I think in general balance is going to be hard to acheive if both sides are given historic IC and manpower - the Union would have
overwhelmed the CSA pretty quickly if it had had a unified command from the beginning (and a competent player will fill this role).
So from a challenge perspective, the Union is likely to be like playing the Soviets in vanilla, and the CSA will be the more interesting choice. In any event, I hope you go through with this, and hope this has been of some use to you.

 

[Ankios]

OK here are my initial comments:

1) Just work on the US, with perhaps some events which give the CSA supplies and/or resources to simulate what the blockade
runners brought in from Europe.

I agree with you now. Why using dozens and dozens of hours to develop countries that are not designed to be played, and may inervene in a totally non-historical way ?

2) As to the territories : The loyalty of Washington, Idaho, Nevada and Colorado were not in question, so I don't like them being independent. Given how sparsely settled these territories were, anything that's not blue or gray on your map, except KY and MO, should have 0 IC, and poor infrastructure.

On the territories, you're right they were loyal to the Union. Every loyal territory will be in the Union because it will be allied to the Union for the entire scenario. And ICs = 0 everywhere, as they were not states, just "territories"

3) Kansas was admitted to the Union in 1861, and its population was overwhelmingly (and militantly) loyal to the Union.
It has to be blue.

Kansas will be integrated into the Union on January 29th, 1861 like I will eventually do for the entire CSA (with US territories becoming part of CSA throught events in the end of the developpement). And also Nevada will become part of the Union as a state in october 1864.

4) You might consider splitting Arizona and New Mexico - northern half (Delano Peak, Phoenix, Santa Fe, Albuqurque, Los Alamos) to the Union, southern half to the CSA.

On that my idea was to have the historical territories borders of New Mexico territories, with South part of it being inherited by CSA, and the rest automatically allied to the Union after that.

5) While I'm not crazy about Utah being independent, it doesn't do a bad job of simulating its complete uselessness
to the cause, or of Brigham Young & Co.'s less than complete loyalty.

Exactly

6) With regard to Kentucky and Missouri, it's a bit of a poser. While independence doesn't *really* reflect the true situation, as with Utah it is probably the most accurate way to simulate it within the game. What sort of events were you thinking of to decide which way these states went?

In the first to have a playable and historical version of the game, one simple event for each state : In may for Kentucky and in June to July 1861 for Missouri, the "state player" will have to choose he decides to join. As for West Virginia.

The AI odds will be 75% Union / 25% CSA.

I am still unsure if during the war, after those decisions, those states should simply by inherited by the US or the CSA. I'm not sure of it. However, for West Virginia the inheritance will be automatic for the side this state choose to join.

In a second development time, I would like to see a serie of decisions from the states and the USA and the CSA to negociate with States governors and state congress to change the odds when the AI will be in control of Missouri and Kentucky.

I suggest all Union land commanders start with skill 0, all major general. CSA land commanders start skill 1, all major general.
This reflects the inexperience of all officers in commanding more than a regiment, and that the Confederate commanders
were in general superior to their Union counterparts initially.

That's a great idea !

Tech team suggestions for the Union :

Land Doctrine - Winfield Scott (expires at end of 1862), Montgomery Meigs, Hermann Haupt (1863)
Naval Doctrine - Gustavus Fox
Industrial - B&O Railroad, Du Pont, J.D. Rockefeller
Naval - John Ericsson, New York Shipyard
Artillery - John Dahlgren
Infantry - Springfield Armory, Samuel Colt

Tech team suggestions for the Confederacy :

Land Doctrine - Robert E. Lee, Nathan Beford Forrest
Naval Doctrine - Gustavus Fox
Industrial - Tredegar Iron Works, Memphis & Charleston Railroad.
Naval - Norfolk Shipyard
Infantry - Fayetteville Arsenal

Nice, thanks, I have not began work on that however.

I think in general balance is going to be hard to acheive if both sides are given historic IC and manpower - the Union would have
overwhelmed the CSA pretty quickly if it had had a unified command from the beginning (and a competent player will fill this role).
So from a challenge perspective, the Union is likely to be like playing the Soviets in vanilla, and the CSA will be the more interesting choice. In any event, I hope you go through with this, and hope this has been of some use to you.

Well it clearly has been a help, to have second opinion on all the stuff I already worked on, and on what I thought to do, to rethink it for the best.

About General balance, you're also right Union should have a clear advantage. However, imagine a game with West Virginia, Kentucky and Missouri joining the CSA, that would kind of change things don't you think ? It will not make the CSA stronger, but the Union won't be as strong as in reality without them.

 

[Gorgo Primus]

Will be keeping an eye on this.

 

[Ankios]

Well thanks guys for being interested by this mod.

Please, if you have a clue about this, I would really much like some help on the unit subject : http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=444082

 

[unmerged(122379)]

looks promising and I will be following, good luck!!

 

[Vesimir]

As long as I'll get some alternative-history choices, I'm interested in playing. (Dictatorship in USA FTW!)

*Waves a small CSA flag*

 

[Ankios]

As long as I'll get some alternative-history choices, I'm interested in playing. (Dictatorship in USA FTW!)

*Waves a small CSA flag*

Hey thanks Von Mergen and Vesimir !

On alternative history choices, well that may well be. However, currently my first goal is to be sure that this mod is completed as historical as possible (even if it is still a game so the end will probably be different from the reality in every game !)

When this will be done, then yeah there will be no problem with continuing developpement with ahistorical potential choices !

 

[Shogun 144]

This looks awesome!

I have always been a major ACW buff so I will be watching this topic and this mod closely. The Union versus the Confederacy never gets old, really.

 

[Ankios]

Sorry guys, once again I need help on one thing :

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=444710

I can't make those events to work. That's frustration because everything else is going well. I don't get what I am not doing right...

 

[unmerged(84187)]

Intéressant...

I wish you the best of luck with this it should be fun to play once it's out.

 

[Ankios]

Very early test :
​

I tried for the first time a first game on the mod. Playing on above average/high speed, on "medium" with the Union, I took 14 month to conquer all the territories from DC to Alabama included, with only one way to enter into CSA : through Virginia (no military access through neutral states for now).

I think this is positive, I feared the Union would be far more powerfull with early work. I must clearly lower the Union IC, as they can build four times what the CSA can build. That is way too much.

One thing that I liked was the fact that there is not hundreds of divisions. In the historic war, both armies didn't really have enough troops to stand the line on the entire front. So I will probably not rise CSA IC, I will mostly focus on lowering the Union IC.

What do you think on that ? Do you agree on less divisions ?

Resources : ​

One important point to work on because of their importance in the vanilla game are resources.

My idea was to use gas as food, and making it very important for troops. And supply would then become the most important other need : ammunitions.

What is your opinion on that guys ?

 

[serutan]

It sounds like you are probably doing this, but there should be very very few divisions present when the game starts.

Just to keep it from getting too ahistoric at the start, I would say the Union IC superiority shouldn't go much under 2.5:1

Using oil to simulate food seems like a good idea - although I would playtest this carefully.

 

[jose1357]

FYI: http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=218156 was a long time ago but you should try hit him up for some help

 

[unmerged(122379)]

I totally agree with you at the begininng, there should be very few divisions, by the way I checked wikipedia for the manpower issue and it says that the full strength of the Union was 2,100,000 while the CSA had 1,064,000 maybe you can implement this in your mod and when the war breaks out you can give additional units to both Union and CSA like for Union you can make an event: ''On July 17, 1862, Congress passed two acts allowing the enlistment of African Americans'' and the player receives historical black divisons such as 1st Kansas Colored Volunteers and 54th Massachusetts and they will have limited strength. For the CSA a periodic event like ''Texas contributed men and ammunitios'', ''Virginia donated money for the cause'' such events will make the game more interesting I think.

P.S Sorry for my crap english

 

[Ankios]

Second "much too early test" with the Confederation this time​

One thing is clear, I am not sure that having really few divisions was a good idea. With the same settings I had yesterday, using the CSA, I crushed the Union very simply : with that few troops, the front is moving very fast. There is no hard fight for a territories, because well on some parts a front is created, and after that a few troops can be launched everywhere where there is no fight.

I reached NYC in 6 month... And I was this this with the situation I crushed yesterday with the Union. It is not possible to see both countries that weak against the other in the same time. So the problem is clearly not the "too much power" of one of those sides.

In the same time, because I am still having this problem (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=444710), there is no time between the start of the scenario and the start of the war. There must be because well both sides realize war is coming - and fast - so both sides in early 1861 must begin to create new troops they will use after april 1861.

So I won't change that for the moment. The most important now is to fix my"jerkiness" with events. I don't get what I do wrong with those but one thing for sure is that it doesn't work...

Other informations : ​

Well things are going on pretty well. I began to work on techs and units. It begins too really feel like a XIXth century scenario when playing it.

The thing I will probably do in last will be characters, generals and techteam. My first goal is to put in place a good setup to be able to test it until it is really possible to say it is a US Civil War mod. So characters, generals and techteam seems secondary to me. They clearly have an influence, but I think a few weeks of waiting is not worrysome. I can offer you the first beta without working on that

It sounds like you are probably doing this, but there should be very very few divisions present when the game starts.

Just to keep it from getting too ahistoric at the start, I would say the Union IC superiority shouldn't go much under 2.5:1

Using oil to simulate food seems like a good idea - although I would playtest this carefully.

On IC, yeah the Union must have a lot more. However, I think 2:1 is enough, and most historical as the Union had twice the forces the CSA had. Anyway I will test both of it.

And on oil to simulate food, I didn't worked on it at all for now. But I think the idea is worth testing it !

FYI: http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=218156 was a long time ago but you should try hit him up for some help

Well on the thread we don't see a lot about the civil war. However yeah I will send him an MP. Maybe he will be interested by working on this subject once more or having some good advices

I totally agree with you at the begininng, there should be very few divisions, by the way I checked wikipedia for the manpower issue and it says that the full strength of the Union was 2,100,000 while the CSA had 1,064,000 maybe you can implement this in your mod and when the war breaks out you can give additional units to both Union and CSA like for Union you can make an event: ''On July 17, 1862, Congress passed two acts allowing the enlistment of African Americans'' and the player receives historical black divisons such as 1st Kansas Colored Volunteers and 54th Massachusetts and they will have limited strength. For the CSA a periodic event like ''Texas contributed men and ammunitios'', ''Virginia donated money for the cause'' such events will make the game more interesting I think.

P.S Sorry for my crap english

Your propostions are great ! However those events are not the priority. I am trying to have good basics, and then that kind of this will be possible to implement.

Anyway, I like those ideas, I copy/paste your answer on my "To do" list

 

[currieboy]

Units

How about giving the Confederates alot of Garrisons? This is kinda realistic seeing as the south (the north not so much) had town/county militias. Give them weak attack but decent defense. Make them already placed but unbuildable. ANy good?

 

[Ankios]

How about giving the Confederates alot of Garrisons? This is kinda realistic seeing as the south (the north not so much) had town/county militias. Give them weak attack but decent defense. Make them already placed but unbuildable. ANy good?

That is a really great idea ! unbuildable is not really necessary, but that is really a great idea to have "militias" already placed that are not real troops not really able to attack. I will try it to see if it is good in the game.