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Nietzsche

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Jan 23, 2007
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This idea has been rolling around in my head for a while, and I think it's time I shared it with the world.

The basic premise:



The Washington Naval Treaty is never organized, and as a result, the world’s largest naval powers, the United States of America, the British Empire, and the Empire of Japan enter a massive Cold-War style arms race, on the seas.

Starting in 1920, the navies of these nation become absolutely massive, trying to out-do each other. Gun sizes explode, with 15inch being a standard by 1925. Aircraft Carriers never get their ‘time in the sun’ as it were, the Navies of the world focusing more on out-ranging each other with their guns.

Japan and the British Empire, in 1921, break the Anglo-Japanese alliance, but sign a non-aggression pact with each other that will only become void in the next twenty years. The United States, however, feeling a threat from the Pacific and Atlantic, put the full weight of their industry into producing ships. Up until this point, the United States had been a qausi-contender in this arms race, but on July 4th 1925, the world watches in horror, and in awe, at the launching of the USS Tennessee, larger than anything floating in the world, larger than any battleship, and thusly, she is christened a “Juggernaut”, as a whole new class of ship. Boasting a grand total of seven triple-gun turrets, the gun caliber being an astonishing 20inch monster, she could easily out gun a fleet of the ships she was expected to go up against.

In tests, her belt armor was thick enough for the 15inch shells she was expected to go up against, to simply bounce off. Her deck could also withstand the plunging fire of said 15inch guns rather well. Her only drawback was her speed, or lack there of. But this didn’t matter much, considering that any other ship in the world, to get close enough to hit her, would be well within the Tennessee’s range long before the enemy ship could get a shot off.

The BBC proclaimed the ship to be “The most grossly overpowered vessel to ever sail, and an offense against God and the British Empire”, while Japan condemned the American Government for heating up the Arms Race at hand. The United States responds by widening the Panama Canal.

In response to the new ‘Juggernaut’ Tennessee, the Empire begins planning of a new Battleship, to counter the threat of the massive armored island that is the Tennessee. On the 21st of October 1926, the British Empire launches the first of their new Nelson-Class Battlecruisers. The “HMS Nelson”, while far smaller than the Tennessee, is armed with four 15 inch Quad Guns, three in the front and one in the rear. While the Tennessee could dwarf several of the Nelson class, their main advantage is their speed. In the most horrid conditions, the Nelson class can steam forward at thirty-one knots.

The New York Times headlines their paper the day-after the launching as “The Empire Strikes Back”.

Japan, in an effort to stay as a viable sea-power, opts for a combination of firepower and speed, unlike focusing on one or the other like her American and English counterparts. Launched on the 15th of May 1927, the new Kongō class is presented to the world, with the launch of the IJN Kongō. It carries only three dual turrets, but they posses 20inch guns. An incredibly thin ship, she can attain speeds similar to the Nelson, and easily outrun the Tennessee.

The major powers had made their moves, their chess pieces were on the board in full view, the only question was when the next move was going to be made, and when not if a war will break out.

__________________________________________________

I have alot more work to do in terms of the background...but I'm posting this here to get interest. Why? I need help. I can't do it on my own. I need people to learn from, ect.

I have plans for Germany, for the world is focused more on the rising developments between Japan/US/UK, and not on them throwing the Treaty of Versailles into the trashcan.

To secure themselves, Hitler and Stalin sign a formal alliance, the "Pan Russo-German Alliance", against the "Forces of Capitalism rushing at them at all sides".

I plan to give the Germans and Russians access to...interesting, technology. Germans will exclusively get "Submersible Battleships". Think really, really big submarines, with 2 dual 13inch gun turrets and torpedos.

I also plan to have "Airship Aircraft carriers".

So...who want's to help?
 
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great another 'super america mod', but still seems interesting, but 31knots isnt that fast, IJN shokaku could make 35kts, the USS baltimore could make 33kts, th 'real kongo' could make 30kts. so the speedy British BB, isnt speedy, just abit faster then light cruisers and very heavy BB. Also, how does America manage to build such a big BB? sure, the depression wasn't in full effect, but even before wall street, the US econmoy is in no state to create a ship 3 times the size of an average BB, within republicans still in charge, the isolationist country would've never invested to build a massiv eBB that dwarfs the Yamato, and, how would it float, theres a reason noone built ships bigger then the Yamato or Iowa, there just not useful, there just big targets that a torpo boat could take out, cos her guns are too big, but still ... looks original and ill be looking into it
 
This looks funny:D
MAybe replace USSR-Ger alliance with a more extensive molotov-ribbentrop pact.
 
Gigalocus said:
great another 'super america mod', but still seems interesting, but 31knots isnt that fast, IJN shokaku could make 35kts, the USS baltimore could make 33kts, th 'real kongo' could make 30kts. so the speedy British BB, isnt speedy, just abit faster then light cruisers and very heavy BB. Also, how does America manage to build such a big BB? sure, the depression wasn't in full effect, but even before wall street, the US econmoy is in no state to create a ship 3 times the size of an average BB, within republicans still in charge, the isolationist country would've never invested to build a massiv eBB that dwarfs the Yamato, and, how would it float, theres a reason noone built ships bigger then the Yamato or Iowa, there just not useful, there just big targets that a torpo boat could take out, cos her guns are too big, but still ... looks original and ill be looking into it
Umm, there's a massive arms race in terms of gun ships in this timeline, for there was no Washington Naval Treaty.

It's not "Super America" either. They have a single uber-powerful "BB". And I haven't started on this yet...because I have no idea what I'm doing. Which is why I need help.
 
Nietzsche said:
Umm, there's a massive arms race in terms of gun ships in this timeline, for there was no Washington Naval Treaty.

It's not "Super America" either. They have a single uber-powerful "BB". And I haven't started on this yet...because I have no idea what I'm doing. Which is why I need help.

well that accounts for the size issues, but also, how are you going to implement this into the HOI engine? unless u make the US have a lvl 6BB, and the otehrs lvl5BB, that doesnt doesnt really allow for each ships advantage. Also what of Italy, or France, they were all naval influenced. But again, like i said 31kts isnt fast at all ... but still lokks interesting and i might be tempted to help in theory, my modding skills arent the best
 
Gigalocus said:
well that accounts for the size issues, but also, how are you going to implement this into the HOI engine? unless u make the US have a lvl 6BB, and the otehrs lvl5BB, that doesnt doesnt really allow for each ships advantage. Also what of Italy, or France, they were all naval influenced. But again, like i said 31kts isnt fast at all ... but still lokks interesting and i might be tempted to help in theory, my modding skills arent the best
Actually, I have a good work-around for that: Seperate doctrines. Seperate ones for America, Germany, Japan, UK, and then a few other doctrines for the lesser-nations to chose from, but the Japan/ect ones are nation-specific, and no other nation can research them.

That'll give them the appropiate fire-power/speeds/ect.
 
Nietzsche said:
Actually, I have a good work-around for that: Seperate doctrines. Seperate ones for America, Germany, Japan, UK, and then a few other doctrines for the lesser-nations to chose from, but the Japan/ect ones are nation-specific, and no other nation can research them.

That'll give them the appropiate fire-power/speeds/ect.

im not entirly sure if thats possible, make sense if it is, but again, i highly doubt it is, you'll have to ask some one with more exp
 
To secure themselves, Hitler and Stalin sign a formal alliance, the "Pan Russo-German Alliance", against the "Forces of Capitalism rushing at them at all sides".
umm... impossible. Hitler`s general plan was;
Annex Austria.
Undermine Czechoslovakia.
Annex Poland.
Invade USSR.
Basically a march east.
he wasnt expecting the Allies to side with poland, so wasnt planning on warring with them [except perhaps france].
The third reich always considered the USSR their chief ideological enemy.

How about a Communist Germany? there was quite a big movement there, not too unreasonable for them to gain power.
 
Guangxi said:
umm... impossible. Hitler`s general plan was;
Annex Austria.
Undermine Czechoslovakia.
Annex Poland.
Invade USSR.
Basically a march east.
he wasnt expecting the Allies to side with poland, so wasnt planning on warring with them [except perhaps france].
The third reich always considered the USSR their chief ideological enemy.

How about a Communist Germany? there was quite a big movement there, not too unreasonable for them to gain power.
Possible. Who would've been in charge, should a Red Germany had risen?
 
Germany and SU are continental powers, what care they if other countries are building huge floating torpedo magnets. Germany might build better U-Boots to sink them but why put turrets on it. Stay submerged and ram a torpedo up its stern. Historically Germany didn't build heavy battleships. They built fast raiders to attack convoys. To quote from a book I have.

"You would attack the British battleships with Submarines?"
"Your majesty, I would go nowhere near a british battleship"

Interesting idea and go for it if you want. Will make Pacific more interesting.
 
Randallw said:
Germany and SU are continental powers, what care they if other countries are building huge floating torpedo magnets. Germany might build better U-Boots to sink them but why put turrets on it. Stay submerged and ram a torpedo up its stern. Historically Germany didn't build heavy battleships. They built fast raiders to attack convoys. To quote from a book I have.

"You would attack the British battleships with Submarines?"
"Your majesty, I would go nowhere near a british battleship"

Interesting idea and go for it if you want. Will make Pacific more interesting.
Why put turrets on them? Because torpedos will be basically worthless against things like the Tennessee. You come in under water, emerge, take out a turret or two, submerge...wash, rinse, repeat until you can shell her without worry of her massive guns.
 
Nietzsche said:
Why put turrets on them? Because torpedos will be basically worthless against things like the Tennessee. You come in under water, emerge, take out a turret or two, submerge...wash, rinse, repeat until you can shell her without worry of her massive guns.

huh? torps are the best thing for sinking ships, cos water follows in, making it sink, theres little point in taking out turrets when they would blow you up in one shot, inface, thats what a BB fears, as it cant fight subs, there can't turn enough to depth charge, although they were later given hedgehogs, they still needed DD to fight subs. Also, i think the Red germany is a good idea, as many parties were strong during the Wiemer period, if something was to happened to Hitler, the Nazi party could not spring up so well
 
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Nietzsche said:
Why put turrets on them? Because torpedos will be basically worthless against things like the Tennessee. You come in under water, emerge, take out a turret or two, submerge...wash, rinse, repeat until you can shell her without worry of her massive guns.

You are simplifying the process far too much. U-cruisers were found to be supremely impractical.

You dont just surface and submerge at the snap of a finger. And a U-cruiser almost certainly could not penetrate the armour on a BB.

Finally, BBs from the big naval powers rarely travelled alone, I would think a bunch of destroyers/cruisers would be putting holes in this mythical sub that can blow pieces off a BB.
 
Contrary to previous claims, every idea proposed by the OP is perfectly doable in-game. Just edit some naval unit models, tweak some techs, and adjust some doctrines. Then playtest!


Nietzsche said:
Why put turrets on them? Because torpedos will be basically worthless against things like the Tennessee. You come in under water, emerge, take out a turret or two, submerge...wash, rinse, repeat until you can shell her without worry of her massive guns.
It would be extremely difficult, to the point of impossibility, to put enough underwater armour on a ship to withstand a heavy torpedo at all critical points and still have the thing move about. The solution to torpedoes cannot be impenetrable armour; it can only be keeping the launchers (subs, etc.) away from the capital ships in the first place. The postulated slow and unmaneuverable Tennessee would make a lovely torpedo target, the more so since the US Navy of the day de-emphasized ASW warfare.

Trying to build an effective sub with guns capable of harming BBs would be rather difficult. First off, it would have to be LARGE; capital ship turrets are very heavy. Secondly, being large, the submerseable could not maneuver or dive well. It could easily take 5 minutes or more between the last firing of the main guns and diving deep enough to be safe from surface ship return fire. This would give any destroyer or cruiser a wonderful target. It would be quite impossible for such a submerseable to survive retaliation!
 
LM+ said:
Contrary to previous claims, every idea proposed by the OP is perfectly doable in-game. Just edit some naval unit models, tweak some techs, and adjust some doctrines. Then playtest!


It would be extremely difficult, to the point of impossibility, to put enough underwater armour on a ship to withstand a heavy torpedo at all critical points and still have the thing move about. The solution to torpedoes cannot be impenetrable armour; it can only be keeping the launchers (subs, etc.) away from the capital ships in the first place. The postulated slow and unmaneuverable Tennessee would make a lovely torpedo target, the more so since the US Navy of the day de-emphasized ASW warfare.

Trying to build an effective sub with guns capable of harming BBs would be rather difficult. First off, it would have to be LARGE; capital ship turrets are very heavy. Secondly, being large, the submerseable could not maneuver or dive well. It could easily take 5 minutes or more between the last firing of the main guns and diving deep enough to be safe from surface ship return fire. This would give any destroyer or cruiser a wonderful target. It would be quite impossible for such a submerseable to survive retaliation!

I've actually been debating the Sub-Battleship idea, and I've scrapped it. What I plan on doing now, is something a bit more realistic and do-able. Instead of Sub-Battleships, I'm going to give the Jerries Battlecarriers. Guess what that is?

Yep. Cross between a Battleship and an Aircraft Carrier. Think of the Bismarck and Tirpitz....then, slice her exactly in half, and on the rear end, add a flightdeck.

Now, of course, these things would hold far less planes than a full-flegded Aircraft Carrier, but, the Germans are just as subjectable to their world's "Popular culture" as we are.

Now, I'm not sure if I touched on this, but instead of straight sea-going aircraft carriers, I'd like to have...>.>...Airship, Aircraft carriers. Ever seen "The World of Tommorow"?

Something like this:

macon-skycaptain2.jpg



I still require help in the following fields:

Events
Unit-making(just so we can find an agreeable point, so I do not over-power one side or the other by mistake)
Ideas(I need help with the general storyline)
And, last, and, at the moment, least:
Graphics(I'm not looking for totally new and uber graphics, but I'd like a few new ones for things like the Airships).
 
How would you do an airship? would it be an air unit that's so but with long range? If you did that, you could have the attached planes be like the escort fighters (a brigade) and they could upgrade with every fighter/interceptor/bomber tech you get, as well as the actual plane units.

Sorry for rambling.
 
soonerborn0524 said:
How would you do an airship? would it be an air unit that's so but with long range? If you did that, you could have the attached planes be like the escort fighters (a brigade) and they could upgrade with every fighter/interceptor/bomber tech you get, as well as the actual plane units.

Sorry for rambling.
Exactly. Escorts/fighter/bomber brigades for the Airship. The airship would only have air-defense(to represent AA guns), ect.
 
I like the idea, but I have a couple questions. What happend to this USS Tennessee?

Tennessee.jpg


She was laid down in 1917 and launched in 1920, early enough within your timeline to have kept her name, methinks.

Also, just out of curiosity, what are the dimensions of your USS Tennessee, and are all main armerment turrets on the centre line, or are a couple of them wing turrets?