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Amina144

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Nov 7, 2017
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There two factors that is holding back difficulty; MAA and Money. Now there already a lot of discussion about the problems of the MAA system, but I want talk about how Money functions in this game. It is meant to be an important strategic resource that shapes you decisions, yet it doesn't feel that away except for the very beginning. The issue is that as game progresses you increase the amount of wealth you gain, but you don't increase expenditures as much, especially when you consider that you naturally decrease maintenance costs for army through modifiers. While most money you spend is to build buildings which exist to make you more money... And that spending spree eventually slows down when hit the building limit, so now you have even less things to spend your money on. These infrastructure all have upfront costs, but no actual maintenance cost downsides. At certain point in my games, it feels like I don't even need to tax my vassals anymore, my demesne with my city & temple vassals alone is more than enough. Then there is another problem that Wealth can stored in absolute safety in infinite amount.
 
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Yea it should require a huge amount of money to maintain a large army making it somewhat a balance act where you don't always want to max out to the limit or doomstack. It should also increase chance of them revolting if you don't pay more when they're a large army or you don't raid/declare war for a long time. (Make your own army be able to join revolts)

Being able to -90% maa maintenance is too much and doesn't make sense with where some of the modifiers come from. Like I understand buildings boosting maa but why decrease maintenance, and if you are why that much? The system isn't bad but the numbers need tweaking. Similarly how dreaded or loved could my character really be that thousands of soldiers accept a lesser salary.

As for buildings maybe they should also have a base maintenance like maa plus if your development is too low (whether bad management, or war, plague) to support that many building levels it becomes inactive until you get dev up. Like say with 6 slots and 8 levels each, could be a 72 points of maintenance (however you balance that as gold, but should be non trivial) along with duchy buildings being 3 or 4 points.

So you need to get development up before the buildings becomes active to generate income yet they always have maintenance unless you abondon them to inactivity or destroy them. Just crude examle 80 development minimum to be able to generate 8x6 worth of buildings + duchy building.

This would also mean for example having low control in a highly built up county would be quite costly or getting occupied/raided might make buildings inactive as development could be lowered.

If this happens in several of your domains at once it could send you into a downward spiral (which the devs are allergic to I think) or else a recovery process where you rely on vassals and can't wage war or build up new stuff.

But if you can maintain those buildings and dev I don't see a problem with the owner of those counties becoming very rich as they do now. It's just that it should require more care.
 
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100% agree. If you do even the most cursory reading about any real-life ruler they are almost always in debt and stressed. Especially if they even think about war.

But in CK3 you just have a money printer and are almost never in debt.
 
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Balance does not mean nerfing - alot of devs (not just Paradox) seem to do this when people complain.

Rather balance means good and bad together. So for example, instead of buildings being all positive, no negative with the only limitation being having enough money to build it. Instead, balanced buildings would have both good and bad included. If you go heavy military, it might lower taxes or development from that county as you draw people away from productive activities. Total War, especially 3 Kingdoms, seems to go this route. You can build all one type, but you'll suffer from revolts and no money.

So if we make too much money, we can't simply say "reduce the money." Because nerfing just makes the game no fun and there's no incentive to do anything. Rather we need to always think opportunity cost. Doing this one thing helps us in one area, but hurts us in another area. Again, Paradox started the game like this with traits being +X but -Y. But with every DLC iteration, it's all more + + + + + and no -.
 
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We need some kind of threat to a hoard of wealth that isn't linked to something absurd/dumb (like the hole in the floor event from Royal Court, ugh). My thinking is this could be handled by a few events, that can trigger if you have a certain amount of gold hoarded. Something like:
  • An increased chance that your steward or one of your courtiers will embezzle/steal (which can potentially be mitigated by something like dread or opinion)
  • An event where your rival, a criminal band of adventurers, or someone similar attempts to outright heist your treasury (basically the reverse of the adventurer scheme that we can already do, I want to be the potential victim of it, I've NEVER seen the AI try to do it to me, is it even possible?). This could be mitigated by high prowess guards, higher martial, etc.
  • If you have a religious head, they should be able to require a massive tithe at a certain point, especially if the ruler is much more wealthy than that religious head. Might lead to excommunications, etc. Could be mitigated by the ruler being pious.

Again, there are a lot of ways to do this within the framework of existing systems that I think would serve as a counterbalance to money hoarding rather than investing in the realm (including investing in buildings for your vassals, which in turn makes them stronger and more of an internal threat) while still being fair and not "randomly losing money" to the player. It's okay for bad things to happen; they just need to make realistic, narrative sense.
 
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Just throwing this out, but having family members/relatives at court should be an expenditure, and an incentive to marry them off and give them land
 
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My take on buildings: when you are small they are really darn expensive and it takes forever to try to get anywhere with them. But when you have grown a bit you rake in so much cash that mass building becomes stupidly trivial. But the problem is also that building buildings is one of the few ways you have to interact with your realm's lands and development (a few largely set-and-forget councilor tasks aside). So less building also means less realm development and management and . . . I don't think that's something the game needs less of.

So building income alone starts off really slow and then spirals. And when combined with vassal income (which can often be easier to scale, especially if you get yourself into leading an administrative realm), this really goes off kilt. Some of thoughts are (the first two I don't really care about nearly as much as the others):

1) Barony level building upgrades (e.g. castle level) should be maybe more expensive

2) Lower levels of sub-barony buildings should probably either provide a bit more gold or be cheaper to make it so that you don't have to wait several decades to build a small addition

3) Higher levels of barony and sub-barony level buildings should have tradeoffs in the forms of cost financial or otherwise to reflect ongoing maintenance and infrastructure costs

4) Military buildings that exist to boost MAA should also raise the costs of troops deployed there depending on level - marginally when raised, but also substantially when not raised (to reflect that your buildings are making better troops by presumably making them more professional, which means more training around the year) - something like 10%/15% per level when raised but like 20% to 50% per vel when not raised. By late game, a fully boosted MAA should cost decently more than they did at game start during war, but substantially more during peace especially to represent that these guys are now basically full-time professional soldiers.

Additionally, bonuses BESIDES the cost increases (which would be applied immediately), should have some sort of ramp-up period before they trigger - either a soft or hard build up, where they climb like 15% every month until you have the full bonus after like 6 months, or just a hard "you need to have been here for at least 6 months to get the bonus" cutoff - there should probably also be ramp downs for the increased unit cost (which I would say should almost certainly be gradual) - this would help prevent shenanigans with stationing and unstationing troops for brief moments to pick up their bonuses and avoid paying maintenance costs over time

5) I would actually love the ability to develop new building slots for meaty gold costs that also come with a chunky maintenance cost that increases with each extra slot you add per building level. This could be in place of or in addition to the existing tech slots. My ideal way would be that each "you can build one more building" tech level actually gives you a modifier to that cost. So let's say by default a barony can build 3 buildings, it'd be something like:

Build Cost: scaling_modifier * base_slot_cost * min((total slots - (3 + tech_modifier)), 0)
Maintenance Cost: base_maintenance * min((total_slots_built - (3 + tech_modifier)), 0) * scaling_modifier

So every building over 3 would impart scaling costs to build and maintain. But if you unlock tech X then it will either discount the maintenance of your 4th slot if it already exists OR make it cheaper to build and maintain that fourth building in the first place if you haven't already.

6) More buildings, even if it's just splitting existing buildings into separate different buildings (and adding slots to reflect this rebalancing around splitting) with portions of the bonus, would be nice as it makes you interact with the realm a bit more instead of something you wait several years to do and then make three clicks. And then you wait several years more. And then make three clicks. And so on. Ideally the alternative would be more substantive realm management and interesting buildings, but even this simple level of interacting with my baronies more than a few times every few years would be nice.

That plus just generally more realm management stuff to do, especially stuff that costs gold would be nice. An easy thing to do would be the patronizing of building projects. This seems ESPECIALLY lacking for the Byzantines, where Emperors undergoing building projects and other such ways to utilize their comparatively massive treasury was a big part of establishing their legitimacy and winning approval of the citizenry of (mostly, though not necessarily only) Constantinople.* I would say that for Administrative Realms this kind of thing should actually impact your legitimacy and be a common part of shoring up new rulers and ESPECIALLY new dynasties.

*And when I say "new buildings" here, I don't mean like buildings that you build for bonuses, this would mostly be stuff that wouldn't materialize on the map or give you bonuses aside from maybe legitimacy/piety/prestige. It's more to represent stuff like emperors (in the ERE, but also just lords basically everywhere too) funding stuff like small hospitals, small temples/monasteries, other general infrastructure and etc.

Something unrelated to buildings is that it feels like more council positions should have monetary costs to represent pay and that both council and court positions should have costs that scale with effectiveness and ruler rank (to some upper bound - a good council should be somewaht expensive, but it shouldn't be bankrupting the ERE either)

Duchy buildings and Wonder buildings should also have maintenance costs (at least the ones that aren't just gold generators) - though those also just need rebalancing in general imho. There are some that are absolutely busted, while others are almost useless and super situational. Also don't get me started on locked wonders meaning that you lose a wonder slot because it's taken up by a mosque that doesn't yet exist, and you're boned because you're either not the right religion or - even worse - not the right flavor of that religion for that province.

It should be possible to get very rich and have a very rich empire with eyewatering amounts of money - the Byzantines - especially in the eyes of the much poorer and less centralized West - were kind of like this (though decreasingly so), even in their diminished form up until the end of the Komnenoi period.

So if we make too much money, we can't simply say "reduce the money." Because nerfing just makes the game no fun and there's no incentive to do anything. Rather we need to always think opportunity cost. Doing this one thing helps us in one area, but hurts us in another area. Again, Paradox started the game like this with traits being +X but -Y. But with every DLC iteration, it's all more + + + + + and no -.
An Opportunity cost isn't when you have something that gives you +X, -Y. Not all tradeoffs are opportunity costs - the vast majority aren't. An opportunity cost is when the taking of one option crowds out or otherwise makes you lose out on the gain that you would have made with another option, or in other words: taking +X means you lose out on the option of taking +Y of some other option.

In other words: An opportunity cost isn't a building that gives you +2 gold, -2 MaA Strength - it's losing out on a +2 MaA building because you went with a +2 gold one instead. This is actually something that CK3 does decently in most areas. The problem is not that there aren't opportunity costs, it's that because of game balancing those opportunity costs aren't very meaningful outside of the early game. Getting a bit more money or a bit more strength isn't very impactful when you're already very rich or very powerful and vastly outscaling everything in the game - and the way the game is currently tuned, the player can often end up doing both after a bit. The game needs more tradeoffs and costs to bring the balance back down to where the opportunity costs are meaningful again.
 
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Just throwing this out, but having family members/relatives at court should be an expenditure, and an incentive to marry them off and give them land
Imagine if your court expenditure scaled according to the number of courtiers and their tier. Those silky dresses, servants, rooms and lavish food gotta cost something, but lower ranked courtiers would perhaps cost less than your snotty nieces and nephews. Perhaps you would only keep the ones that truly mean something to you, then.

It might lead to more random wanderers, though. Or it just means the AI would be more hesitant to marry off courtiers to suitors without land prospects.
 
Imagine if your court expenditure scaled according to the number of courtiers and their tier. Those silky dresses, servants, rooms and lavish food gotta cost something, but lower ranked courtiers would perhaps cost less than your snotty nieces and nephews. Perhaps you would only keep the ones that truly mean something to you, then.

It might lead to more random wanderers, though. Or it just means the AI would be more hesitant to marry off courtiers to suitors without land prospects.
That's a good point, a huge court should be EXPENSIVE. I still think (adult) family members should imbue another cost, with traits like profligate, greedy and rakish increasing it.

Furthermore, when I had a think about it, perhaps certain buildings should have an upkeep like artifacts do? Every x amount of years your tradeport or monastery or even holy site needs X ducats to renovate, or else it loses a level. Might be a source of irritation with a lot of clicks, so maybe something to automate.
 
Few things I do to make the gold I hoard useful:
  • Build holdings in my vassal's land. Not buildings because that's way too much micromanagement, but just to fill the empty barony slots.
  • Send massive amount of gold to my spiritual head of faith, accomplished by using my personal mod where I can send 5k, 10k, 20k, 200k gold to any character. This allows the gold to be redistributed among the faithful, which basically all my vassals. Part of my reason to always reform faith and pick spiritual head of faith.
 
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Few things I do to make the gold I hoard useful:
  • Build holdings in my vassal's land. Not buildings because that's way too much micromanagement, but just to fill the empty barony slots.
  • Send massive amount of gold to my spiritual head of faith, accomplished by using my personal mod where I can send 5k, 10k, 20k, 200k gold to any character. This allows the gold to be redistributed among the faithful, which basically all my vassals. Part of my reason to always reform faith and pick spiritual head of faith.

The point is that you shouldn't be able to hoard gold, not that there isn't anything useful to spend it on.
 
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Strategic layer of the game requires identifying what the strategic objective of the game is. In so much that the game is about spreading the dynasty, the costs scale with dynasty size, which grows... well, semi-exponentially, depending on how long they live. Which is more likely when you're dumping money not only on them directly, but maximizing activities for them to join in on.

But, most discussion of CK3 doesn't actually agree that that's the strategic objective, so eh.
 
If only charity at least existed in the game, let alone be non-optional (legends are meant to be a money sink but they're entirely optional so they just dont work as one!)
It should not only exist, but be tied to the legitimacy and influence mechanics of at least the Byzantines especially, and more generally of at least the Christian and Muslim rulers.