The crown symbol for emperor of China system

[buhate]

I watched the new dev clash and I am so excited about the new expansion especially the new system for China. But in respect of this system, there's one tiny little thing I want to point out as a Chinese that is the crown sign.

In Chinese history, how that crown looked like changed so many times. I think many research had been made by your hard working employees. Generally, we have the following styles (Any dynasty founded by Han people) :

For Ming, we have this:

And Qing, they use this ( Manchu people only):


So far as I see from all pictures and videos, it seems the Qing style is used. This style of crown definitely can represent emperor of Qing ,but for emperor of china, it is not good enough as the general style and Ming style can better represent the Mandate of Heaven China.

Therefore, I highly recommend eu4 to rework that texture and use the general style as it is a better representative Chinese crown.

Alternatively, maybe to make it more accurate, create different textures for different countries who become emperor, for example, use Ming style for Ming if Ming is the emperor and use Qing style for Manchu or Qing when they become the emperor.

I personally think the Han dynasty crown is the best as most of dynasties in Chinese history use the Han style.




Main dynasties founded by Han people in history: Qin(秦), Han(漢), Xin(新), Wei(魏), Shu(蜀), Wu(吳), Jin(晉), Song(宋), Qi(齊), Liang(梁), Chen(陳), Sui(隋), Tang(唐), Zhou(周), Ming(明)

Note Han(漢or汉) means both the Han dynasty in history and an ethnic named Han, I used Han people for the latter meaning.

 

[buhate]

The current Qing style symbol

 

[Fryz]

I think the Qing mandarin hat is only the icon for the Chinese empire version of legitimacy meter (which might have some different "explanation" other than "legitimacy") , that does not necessarily mean it's representing the Emperor.

 

[Trin Tragula]

@buhate I invite you to check out the other screenshots from the expansion. In the "Emperor of China" screen you may find an icon you recognize
That icon you see there does not symbolize Imperial Mandate.

 

[buhate]

@buhate I invite you to check out the other screenshots from the expansion. In the "Emperor of China" screen you may find an icon you recognize
That icon you see there does not symbolize Imperial Mandate.

Thanks for your reply, i see what you mean. What I am trying to say is, as I highlighted in the image, When Vietnam become the emperor, the legitimacy symbol and that manchu hat next to decrease 29 shouldn't be a manchu crown unless Qing or Manchu is the emperor.

 

[Trin Tragula]

That is not a concept comparable to legitimacy. It symbolizes something else
In general we consider both Qing and Ming empires of China from this period and have used symbols from both. These do not change when the empire of China changes, much as the interface over in Europe, or for that matter other parts of the world, stays the same regardless of how the game evolves.

The symbol you see beside the number 29 has nothing to do with legitimacy though (and it's not a crown like the one in your first post but I imagine that can be hard to tell in this screenshot, wait for one with higher image quality).

 

[buhate]

That is not a concept comparable to legitimacy. It symbolizes something else
In general we consider both Qing and Ming empires of China from this period and have used symbols from both. These do not change when the empire of China changes, much as the interface over in Europe, or for that matter other parts of the world, stays the same regardless of how the game evolves.

The symbol you see beside the number 29 has nothing to do with legitimacy though (and it's not a crown like the one in your first post but I imagine that can be hard to tell in this screenshot, wait for one with higher image quality).

Here is what I am trying to express:
1. The Manchu hat I circled is for something about the china system.
2. it is a china system not Manchu system.
3. Manchu hat cannot represent something for general china as the other two styles I mentioned are better options.
4. I recommend a rework on that Manchu hat symbol, change to something identical to Ming style hat or general china hat.

 

[Wudadi]

Here is what I am trying to express:
1. The Manchu hat I circled is for something about the china system.
2. it is a china system not Manchu system.
3. Manchu hat cannot represent something for general china as the other two styles I mentioned are better options.
4. I recommend a rework on that Manchu hat symbol, change to something identical to Ming style hat or general china hat.

Qing and Ming both belong to Chinese history, do not ethic discrimination.

 

[Granite]

This is hardly the only place that generalizations are made for the sake of expediency.
For example, the double headed eagle that we associate with the HRE in game terms was a symbol that was propagated by the good old Habsburgs(Though it has its roots much further back). And yet, even if the HRE is formed by a non-habsburg, the symbol is still used. Similarly, even if you form Malaya as a hindu nation, muslim-style names will be used for your rulers/advisors.
Paradox is limited by game systems and what they can produce for UI, the hat symbol for China isn't going to change depending on the ruling culture anymore than the flag of the HRE is going to change if it is formed by not-Austria.

 

[buhate]

This is hardly the only place that generalizations are made for the sake of expediency.
For example, the double headed eagle that we associate with the HRE in game terms was a symbol that was propagated by the good old Habsburgs(Though it has its roots much further back). And yet, even if the HRE is formed by a non-habsburg, the symbol is still used. Similarly, even if you form Malaya as a hindu nation, muslim-style names will be used for your rulers/advisors.
Paradox is limited by game systems and what they can produce for UI, the hat symbol for China isn't going to change depending on the ruling culture anymore than the flag of the HRE is going to change if it is formed by not-Austria.

I understand why the hat symbol for China cannot be changed, but my point is that the default symbol shouldn't be a Manchu hat, it should be the general style I mentioned above, that style of hat is the best China hat representative.

For example, if there is only one picture to represent Chinese in the history:

The man on the left should be used to represent Chinese as that is the appearance before Qing. I understand the right side kind of appearance is how westerners think Chinese are, and if this game starts after 16th century, use Manchu style is totally okay, but in this game, Ming also involved and game starts with Ming in Chinese area, so traditional Chinese style should be followed.

 

[Wudadi]

I understand why the hat symbol for China cannot be changed, but my point is that the default symbol shouldn't be a Manchu hat, it should be the general style I mentioned above, that style of hat is the best China hat representative.

For example, if there is only one picture to represent Chinese in the history:
View attachment 234652
The man on the left should be used to represent Chinese as that is the appearance before Qing. I understand the right side kind of appearance is how westerners think Chinese are, and if this game starts after 16th century, use Manchu style is totally okay, but in this game, Ming also involved and game starts with Ming in Chinese area, so traditional Chinese style should be followed.

The religion icon also is wrong in China. And some westerners know about Qing's hair style. Qing's hat icon also can be represented as China. If you play as Qing in later year mod. The hat icon is Ming's hat. It is weird too. the game can't change two icon for 2 dynasty. So I think both Qing and Ming's hat using one icon is okay, not a big deal. This is not a big issue for me. If the hat icon just represent Ming, don't represent other countries in the game, it should be fixed. But we can see in the gameplay, the hat icon represent Qing and Ming at least. So it's fine. The wrong Confucian icon is the big issue.

 

[Trained Medicu]

I think the royal jade seal（Yuxi，玉玺） or the huabiao（华表） would be a better symbol of Chinese authority.

 

[Trin Tragula]

As I said before, the symbol discussed has nothing to do with authority in game. It symbolizes something else...

 

[3ishop]

As I said before, the symbol discussed has nothing to do with authority in game. It symbolizes something else...

national bling account?

 

[Me_]

As I said before, the symbol discussed has nothing to do with authority in game. It symbolizes something else...

Unless it symbolizes something directly related to the Manchu, it is completely irrelevant what it represents to the discussion on wheter or not it is period-appropriate.

 

[zukodark]

Unless it symbolizes something directly related to the Manchu, it is completely irrelevant what it represents to the discussion on wheter or not it is period-appropriate.

If you look at what he said in his comments:

• It does not symbolize authority or imperial mandate.
• It is not the manchu crown.

I'd recommend to wait until they have announced what it is.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Unless it symbolizes something directly related to the Manchu, it is completely irrelevant what it represents to the discussion on wheter or not it is period-appropriate.

Qing things aren't period appropriate?
It is a Qing symbol, but not a crown such as the one discussed here (any likeness is down to the screenshot being blurry).
As I said, as far as we are concerned Qing and Ming are both appropriate empires of China as they are in the timeline.

 

[Me_]

Qing things aren't period appropriate?
It is a Qing symbol, but not a crown such as the one discussed here (any likeness is down to the screenshot being blurry).
As I said, as far as we are concerned Qing and Ming are both appropriate empires of China as they are in the timeline.

Perhaps. But the argument that "you don't know what it is" is moot regardless.

What it is matters not when the issue is that it comes from the latter part of the game - the part that most players don't even reach.

Personally, I honestly would not care if the symbol was a Chinese symbol saying "this is the Manchu, we laugh at you, la, la, la"; but I understand that some peple may not like it, as it's akin to having the Napoleon's hat as the sybol of "whatever" for France in 1444.

 

[Giakhanh271]

that crown is only for chinese emperor, dont ever make it for other nation especially vietnamese because vietnamese never used that crown. i believe korean and japanese dont use that crown for their king/ruler/emperor

 

[Giakhanh271]

really, you shouldn't use any symbol for the whole tradition such as asian or eu, if you really want to make the same symbol for all country, in religion, tech it's ok for a different symbol but for tradition as government type, name, tittle.. dont make the whole world believe they are the same