The Deluge

[Vesimir]

Deluge
Land of flowing river
Time of spring, under a blue sky
Heavy rain upon our wide-brimmed hats
Angel feathers to be stained with blood
Might be we die and live on
Right of law victorious upon a barbaric land
A deluge upon an enslaved folk
As they rise their heads from the fields of grain
Rightful rulers that could not be kings
While heritage remains
Blood on the slopes of Brightmountain
Baptism of fire
Burning 'priests', burning with lust for gold
The worrisome brow of protestant men
As they see women at a monastery
Blood on the slopes of Brightmountain
The smoke of the gunpowder
As man kneels and man stands
Thunder after thunder
A raging storm comes upon the land
And this is the right of the law
To remove the bleeding 'God' from the cross
To oppose the worship of pain
To stand and be free
To release piss upon Vistula
And laugh together with the free world
Blood on the slopes of Brightmountain
Baptism of fire
Burning 'priests', burning with lust for gold
The worrisome brow of protestant men
As they see women at a monastery
Blood on the slopes of Brightmountain

 

[Henry IX]

Ah Poland, a nation that drifts in and out of European history, but never in exactly the same place twice.

 

[Yakman]

Ah Poland, a nation that drifts in and out of European history, but never in exactly the same place twice.

It is always on the periphery but always the cause of the Continental calamity

 

[noobermenschen]

It is always on the periphery but always the cause of the Continental calamity

 

[Yakman]

View attachment 683211

Delightful. I have always maintained that Poland is the most important country in Europe because they keep the Russians out

 

[noobermenschen]

Delightful. I have always maintained that Poland is the most important country in Europe because they keep the Russians out

More importantly, it keeps the Russians and Germans APART.

Belarus may inadvertently be the best buffer state because no one wants it:

'Erbert, we live in a bloody swamp!

 

[Yakman]

More importantly, it keeps the Russians and Germans APART.

Belarus may inadvertently be the best buffer state because no one wants it:

'Erbert, we live in a bloody swamp!

View attachment 683215

What were the Germans and the Russians do? Be one happy people?

no, of course not. But the Polish kept the Russians that one big step from Europe and kept the Germans that one big step from having an unlimited backyard.

 

[fr-rein]

Poland felt left out of 30 years war and asked for a sequel

 

[bz249]

I though Poland has one neighbor it can trust somewhat, the Baltic Sea. But now I see I have to rethink it.

 

[pithorr]

Poland felt left out of 30 years war and asked for a sequel

Oh that was the mistake indeed. To give some job to bored Cossacks and squeeze heretics at the same time. No rebellion and no Deluge. Win win

 

[fr-rein]

Oh that was the mistake indeed. To give some job to bored Cossacks and squeeze heretics at the same time. No rebellion and no Deluge. Win win

No, no, it happened because a Pole stole Khmelnytsky's estate and killed his son during the robbery. Which is like Poles stealing cars today. Don't steal them if you fear of 2nd Deluge, Sweden may win this time around

 

[pithorr]

No, no, it happened because a Pole stole Khmelnytsky's estate and killed his son during the robbery. Which is like Poles stealing cars today. Don't steal them if you fear of 2nd Deluge, Sweden may win this time around

OK, OK, but Chmielnicki didn't fight alone.
And Cossacks were bored.
And starving a bit, since after Władysław IV surprise death, the tour to Constantinople was cancelled

Also, you know, we steal in Germany. Today they don't have enough brooms to Anschuss us. And Swedes, you know to what kind of sissies they turned into...

 

[fr-rein]

And starving a bit, since after Władysław IV surprise death, the tour to Constantinople was cancelled

Actually it was cancelled before his death. The Uprising happened before the death of monarch and, in part, initially Khmelnytsky and Cossacks hoped to reason with Władysław IV (which was possible). But cancelling the tour was indeed a grave offense

 

[pithorr]

Actually it was cancelled before his death. The Uprising happened before the death of monarch and, in part, initially Khmelnytsky and Cossacks hoped to reason with Władysław IV (which was possible). But cancelling the tour was indeed a grave offense

Oh, indeed. I don't remember details so much
It kinda happened in the same time, bearing in time realities of that era. Some say the king might not be so much aware what was going on there.

Anyway, the main issue was stupidity of the Poles (or maybe the ruling class on Ukraine, which was a bit more complex).

 

[fr-rein]

Anyway, the main issue was stupidity of the Poles (or maybe the ruling class on Ukraine, which was a bit more complex).

You meant the oligarchic (or magnate, doesn't make diffence) system in Eastern Europe that still plagues the region today.

I actually learnt about the Deluge much later, in our school programs there is little focus on it and it was more of "and then Sweden came to help" while focusing on what was going on in Ukraine.

 

[pithorr]

You meant the oligarchic (or magnate, doesn't make diffence) system in Eastern Europe that still plagues the region today.

Yes, but mostly on Ukraine. In the 17th century the Crown's core was not so much oligarchic yet, common gentry still had a lot of power. But I rather meant that using modern nationalist pattern is false in case of the Commonwealth. A lot of gentry, and especially magnates had actually Ruthenian roots.

I actually learnt about the Deluge much later, in our school programs there is little focus on it and it was more of "and then Sweden came to help" while focusing on what was going on in Ukraine.

To help? Hehe.
But in some kind their "help" was useful indeed. But rather for Moscow, not Cossacks

 

[fr-rein]

Yes, but mostly on Ukraine. In the 17th century the Crown's core was not so much oligarchic yet, common gentry still had a lot of power. But I rather meant that using modern nationalist pattern is false in case of the Commonwealth. A lot of gentry, and especially magnates had actually Ruthenian roots.

Yep, but that's heavily intertwined: they became Polonized and Catholics because of the Polish pressure, that made them distanced from people and, at the point of Uprising, the nobles were mostly seen as foreign. Cossacks generated new crop of nobles in the end, the Cossack ones, which spawned from both regular soldiers and old nobles who took side with them.

To help? Hehe.

I oversimplify, but there are some biases

But in some kind their "help" was useful indeed. But rather for Moscow, not Cossacks

Well, it was useful for Cossacks. But the thing is that there wasn't a strong hand at a right time and democratic organization backfired a lot.

 

[pithorr]

Yep, but that's heavily intertwined: they became Polonized and Catholics because of the Polish pressure, that made them distanced from people and, at the point of Uprising, the nobles were mostly seen as foreign. Cossacks generated new crop of nobles in the end, the Cossack ones, which spawned from both regular soldiers and old nobles who took side with them.



I oversimplify, but there are some biases



Well, it was useful for Cossacks. But the thing is that there wasn't a strong hand at a right time and democratic organization backfired a lot.

Well, I'd say we were taught different biased histoty classes, if I probably didn't have yours, during commie school times

However, it didn't work this way. Nobles didn't care if peasant was a Pole or Rusin (as they were called that time till the late 19th century), Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox. They despised him anyway, because they were descendants of ancient Sarmatians

In the same time there was for instance another peasant rebellion in Lesser Poland, surpressed cruelly, with the leader Kostka-Napierski eventually impaled.

Bringing national liberation case into the 17th century history is an abuse, at least in reference to peasantry, which has clise to none national identification. Their identification was limited to the nearest church, so they could be easily manipulated by people using certain religious measures in their agenda.
That BTW was most important reason for the Union of Brześć - to stop Muscovites to meddle in the PLC affairs using Orthodox church channels. It failed eventually, but that's another story, however the hate trigerred by the Union helped Chmielnicki a lot. So we can say that religion was very important in this case, but not nationality.

Also, I don't think the polonization or conversions were the effect of any pressure, but rather the result of more attractive offer of Polish/Catholic culture in means of education, administration, connection to wider European culture etc. Pretty the same happened in Silesia. Prior to Bismarck no one germanized the Poles living there forcefully. German culture was just more attractive.

 

[XYN]

That BTW was most important reason for the Union of Brześć - to stop Muscovites to meddle in the PLC affairs using Orthodox church channels. It failed eventually, but that's another story, however the hate trigerred by the Union helped Chmielnicki a lot. So we can say that religion was very important in this case, but not nationality.

I don't know, if you look at it, it seems most uprisings on the territory of Ukraine outside of Austrian partition targeted specifically Poles and Jews.

They don't really look like any sort of a national awakening, but nationality seems to have certainly played some part.

 

[pithorr]

I don't know, if you look at it, it seems most uprisings on the territory of Ukraine outside of Austrian partition targeted specifically Poles and Jews.

19th century is quite another story.
However, what uprisings?
In the Russian Empire?