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Incompetent

Euroweenie in Exile
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Sep 22, 2003
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While we're on the subject of Burgundy, I should explain my idea for French culture more fully.

- At the start, both Brittany and Burgundy have French culture.

- However, both reach a crossroads at some point:
Brittany must decide whether to focus on England (moderately peaceful, naval/colonial option) or France (more aggressive land-based option).
Burgundy must decide whether to remain a predominately French state (allows high level of centralisation and warmongering, and pays off early on) or to become a culturally diverse Rhineland one (requires Burgundy to be open, tolerant and fairly peaceful, but this reaps greater rewards later).
For both powers, turning away from France results in the loss of French culture.

The strategic position depends on which of the four possibilities occur:

- Both focus on France: the outcome will depend on how strong and/or peaceful the two countries are, but the likely result is protacted warfare as the two countries battle for supremacy in France. Surrounding countries will tend to back whichever power is weaker, as they don't want either side to win. Even the winner will be left battered enough that it will hardly have been worth the effort, and may be hit by a revolution later, turning it into the Republic of Orleans (see below).

- Brittany goes north, Burgundy stays put: Burgundy will steadily push westwards, and if it's aggressive will try to push Brittany off the continent. But Brittany may be quite ready to make concessions, as it means it can focus more effort on colonisation and fending off the Scots. The Breton lands will carry a nasty sting for Burgundy if it takes them, however.

- Brittany stays put, Burgundy goes east: Brittany will want to expand into Paris and surrounding areas. Burgundy is probably strong enough to stop much overt military action by Brittany, but the loyalty of the people caught in the middle will be suspect as both sides try to woo them. A kind of cold war could develop if Burgundy is obstinate, but in the end Burgundy will probably realise that it's not worth clinging on to the region at the expense of assimilation further east.

- Brittany goes north, Burgundy goes east: A power vacuum will develop in Northern France as the legitimacy of the two local powers wanes. There are many ways in which this could develop, but the most likely result is that a new state emerges in the centre of Northern France, called the Republic of Orleans (in the Abe tradition, I'm not allowed to call it France!). Orleans will only be a medium power in its own right (unless one or other of Brittany and Burgundy is destroyed by the revolution), but its political and social outlook will be extremely radical for its time, with consequences over the whole of Europe and even its colonies.

The Republic of Orleans can emerge in all four scenarios, but it'll be much more likely in the first and fourth cases, where the existing powers' authority in Northern France is disputed or dubious. Its existence and some of its event choices will open up more events (including random events) for other powers, creating a much more ideologically charged atmosphere in the later stages of the game.
 
The republic of Orleans is good, would be fun if a revolter- nation could emerge in France and upset the already established powers there. I'm confused why the hugenotts aren't intriduced in Abe, a protestant nation in the middle of the strong catholic stronghold could be interresting, also if there's an event for Brittany to turn crc if they go south.

Also we're talking about introducing a new culture in south france; occitan, and give brittany a choice to exchange their french culture to occitan.
 
yourworstnightm said:
The republic of Orleans is good, would be fun if a revolter- nation could emerge in France and upset the already established powers there. I'm confused why the hugenotts aren't intriduced in Abe, a protestant nation in the middle of the strong catholic stronghold could be interresting, also if there's an event for Brittany to turn crc if they go south.

Also we're talking about introducing a new culture in south france; occitan, and give brittany a choice to exchange their french culture to occitan.

Actually, the Huguenots are in Abe. They emerge as a protectorate of the Sultan of Granada, if he chooses to help the Protestants in southern France, althought they are unable to revolt. Savoy is also likely to turn Reformed, and Brittany Protestant, so France is hardly a Catholic paradise.

CRC Brittany doesn't make a lot of sense as the Bretons are Protestant. But CRC BURGUNDY is another matter - I think that should be a non-default choice for them, though, if we go with MattyG's ideas for them.

I've called this 'the Fate of Northern France' because I'm assuming that the south will be occitan, and that Brittany and Burgundy will never get occitan culture. I think it would be very strange if Brittany had more occitan than french provinces, given where it is - on the Atlantic coast, 'Occitanie' only extends as far north as the river Garonne (divides Gascogne and Poitou provinces in EU2).
 
Incompetent said:
While we're on the subject of Burgundy, I should explain my idea for French culture more fully.

- At the start, both Brittany and Burgundy have French culture.

- However, both reach a crossroads at some point:
Brittany must decide whether to focus on England (moderately peaceful, naval/colonial option) or France (more aggressive land-based option).
Burgundy must decide whether to remain a predominately French state (allows high level of centralisation and warmongering, and pays off early on) or to become a culturally diverse Rhineland one (requires Burgundy to be open, tolerant and fairly peaceful, but this reaps greater rewards later).
For both powers, turning away from France results in the loss of French culture.

The strategic position depends on which of the four possibilities occur:

- Both focus on France: the outcome will depend on how strong and/or peaceful the two countries are, but the likely result is protacted warfare as the two countries battle for supremacy in France. Surrounding countries will tend to back whichever power is weaker, as they don't want either side to win. Even the winner will be left battered enough that it will hardly have been worth the effort, and may be hit by a revolution later, turning it into the Republic of Orleans (see below).

- Brittany goes north, Burgundy stays put: Burgundy will steadily push westwards, and if it's aggressive will try to push Brittany off the continent. But Brittany may be quite ready to make concessions, as it means it can focus more effort on colonisation and fending off the Scots. The Breton lands will carry a nasty sting for Burgundy if it takes them, however.

- Brittany stays put, Burgundy goes east: Brittany will want to expand into Paris and surrounding areas. Burgundy is probably strong enough to stop much overt military action by Brittany, but the loyalty of the people caught in the middle will be suspect as both sides try to woo them. A kind of cold war could develop if Burgundy is obstinate, but in the end Burgundy will probably realise that it's not worth clinging on to the region at the expense of assimilation further east.

- Brittany goes north, Burgundy goes east: A power vacuum will develop in Northern France as the legitimacy of the two local powers wanes. There are many ways in which this could develop, but the most likely result is that a new state emerges in the centre of Northern France, called the Republic of Orleans (in the Abe tradition, I'm not allowed to call it France!). Orleans will only be a medium power in its own right (unless one or other of Brittany and Burgundy is destroyed by the revolution), but its political and social outlook will be extremely radical for its time, with consequences over the whole of Europe and even its colonies.

The Republic of Orleans can emerge in all four scenarios, but it'll be much more likely in the first and fourth cases, where the existing powers' authority in Northern France is disputed or dubious. Its existence and some of its event choices will open up more events (including random events) for other powers, creating a much more ideologically charged atmosphere in the later stages of the game.


Incompetant,

I think there is a lot of good material here and I especially like the inclusion of a 'radical' Republic of Orleans. The timing, flavour and balance are all very good. They should strictly have no explorers or conquistadors and be a more land-than-naval based country with strong Innovativeness.

I disagree strongly that Brittany and Burgundy should both begin with French culture. Instead of the crossroads events potentially losing them that culture, it is there that they could potentially gain that culture if they chose the right 'direction'.

I think that only the French minors should begin with French culture, being the only claimants to themselves. Brittany is not French, and should only be able to become so by determined player choice, no gamestart default.

In this way, the only way a French power can emerge is that Guyenne or someone rises from a one-two state minor through fortunate generalship.

In this way, the crossroads events for both can also have the feeling that the need to make the grand decision is in part for the good of continental security, and would in part explain why the French people would accept Breton or Burgundian rule, because they have grown exhausted of the internicine wars among the French counts and dukes.