The Game seems to be much in favor of Russian industry

[unmerged(99265)]

I just can't figure out where on this Earth do the Russians own such huge Industrial stock. Surely by the outbreak of the war Russians were not the most industrially developed country on the Earth, what I deduce from the Soviet IC.
What seemed specifically strange to me was that even after I enforced the Russians to accept the bitter peace resolution, meaning that they would strip themselves of every important industrial region they had west of Stalingrad they still had a comparable to German domestic industrial capacity.

Ah and one more thing to consider is that if Russians were forced to accept the bitter peace it meant that they had to be put into bitter. limitation on the numver of land units. limitations on the reseach capacity. restrictions on the peace time IC and heaven knows everything the victors forced upon Germans after the first world war. But nothing of the sort happened. and I can but thank good fortune to see the Russian beligrance equal to 0 otherwise there would be a even more thread against the eastern frontiers with a nation owning more than 300 land divisions.

I think that something has to be done with this Russian industrial capacity so unreal I believe.

 

[Draigh]

1) There is an event that moves the Russian industry from west of Moscow to the east, so that not all industry is whiped out once Bitter Peace fires.

2) By the end of the war the Russians had the biggest industry on the whole of continental Europe and Asia. I don't know how it compared to the US, but I wouldn't be surprised if their industrial capacity is at least equal.

3) I don't think that such limitations as you propose are really possible to put into an event. Peace time modifier might be, since events can add and substract from it, but definately no limitation on the number of units or research capacity.

And last but not least, every country can be built into an industrial powerhouse. IC whoring Germany is unreal as well, as is the IC a decent US player can build up. It's also quite unreal that Bhutan conquers the world, but hey, it can be done as well.

 

[Myth]

I don't think it's as much a problem of the Soviet IC being too high as others' IC (particularly the US) being too low. Remember, the Soviets did outproduce Germany by far historically. The USA, though, produced nearly as much as the rest of the world combined during the war, which really shows that its industry has been incredibly nerfed.

 

[unmerged(99265)]

I accept that the Russian industry managed to keep up the country in bitter situations, but don't forget what brought German industry to his knees was not the industrial powerhouse of the hostiles but lack of domestic resources. If Russians did make more planes it was basically due to the fact that they had the Baku oilfields to feed the airforce.

Well I recall a scene in the movie "Enemy at the gates" where the frontline assault Russian soldiers were equipped with a rifle and the next wave with 3 cartridges to take the rifle of the first wave after they fall.

I doubt if a country with about 2 times the industrial capacity of Germans could not provide her soldiers with a simple lousy Rifle.

I still say that Russians did not win through their superior industrial might but due to their hostile terrian, blood freezing cold ( What the game cannot effectively show the effect I'm afraid) and above all the terrible mistakes of the German leadership.

 

[Draigh]

Well I recall a scene in the movie "Enemy at the gates" where the frontline assault Russian soldiers were equipped with a rifle and the next wave with 3 cartridges to take the rifle of the first wave after they fall.

I doubt if a country with about 2 times the industrial capacity of Germans could not provide her soldiers with a simple lousy Rifle.

I still say that Russians did not win through their superior industrial might but due to their hostile terrian, blood freezing cold ( What the game cannot effectively show the effect I'm afraid) and above all the terrible mistakes of the German leadership.

1) Enemy at the gates... *shakes head*

2) While there are stories about these kind of things happening, it's mostly in the very beginning of the war, when the Russian industry still had to gear up. Remember that in '41, the USSR was mostly a pushover ("happy times", as the Germans called it) and reinforcements wouldn't be showing up intil winter.

3) While terrain, weather and German mistakes played a role, limiting their victory to those three factors would be minimising the Soviet victory a lot. The Russians showed a capability to keep fighting even when German victory seemed near, from '42 onwards they also managed to start heavily outproducing the Germans, allowing them to wear the Germans down. Also don't forget that the Russians were actually better equipped, specifically in terms of winter gear. And, last but not least, the Soviet officer corps showed a very fine talent for mobility warfare in the later periods in the war.

 

[unmerged(59077)]

Well I recall a scene in the movie "Enemy at the gates" where the frontline assault Russian soldiers were equipped with a rifle and the next wave with 3 cartridges to take the rifle of the first wave after they fall.

Your problem is you're looking for Truth in Movies. Cease and desist at once.

I doubt if a country with about 2 times the industrial capacity of Germans could not provide her soldiers with a simple lousy Rifle.

You're correct. They did. The movie lies.

I still say that Russians did not win through their superior industrial might but due to their hostile terrian, blood freezing cold ( What the game cannot effectively show the effect I'm afraid) and above all the terrible mistakes of the German leadership.

They blame Winter every time (Poltava, Grande Armee, Barbarossa) and every time they're wrong.

European Russia is flat and hard to defend. How is it hostile TERRAIN?

Soviet leadership was lacking early in the war. As soon as they got some - they started winning and kept winning. It wasn't up the the Germans to lose the war, it was up to the Soviets not to. And they didn't.

And that's all that needs to be said on the subject.

 

[unmerged(99265)]

One point that I must say in favour of Soviet high command was its talent in learning from mistakes and misleds. Well after the catastrophic fall of the Ukrein and more than million causalty and POW claimed by Germans upon Russians they started to learn that no matter what happened they should never be surronded. This led to their more effective defence of Moscow and Stalingrad by learning the methods of mobilizing their army. Now as my Belgian friend stated " by the end of the war the Russian commanders showed a high measure of mobile warfare" correct but since they had enough time to analyze the German mobile warfare tactics in bitter situations.

I recall the same faith during the Great northern war where Peter the Great after finally conquering the Swedes honored them as " His greatest military teachers who thought him the rules of warfare in practice"

Well Russians have a history of learning.

So I let myself conclude that it was the superioty of Guderian, Von Manstein,.... which led to the supority of Jukov and Koniev eventually.

About the hostility of Russian terrain all I can say is that the land is infinite. This infinite land requires inifinte army and infinite resources.
I recall Hitler stating during his happy days that " They say we are going to face 10 years of constant warfare after the conquest and I am OK with it as it keeps us in the state of alert" Hitler knew since the beginning that the war on eastern front was never due to end and perhaps deep inside he was willing to take the advantage.

The majority of the above may be out of point but let me support my initial boast with a simple mind Game. Suppose that Russian terrain was limited to Omsk, There was no Russian winter, and Hitler allowed the Wehrmacht to conduct the war based on logic and not Phobia. Answer me please: Do you think the Russians could keep up the war let alone conquer the Germans eventually?

I don't think so. But perhaps you don't agree with me.

 

[unmerged(59077)]

Russian Winter - only 41/42 was a cold winter. The rest were warmer than average. But ANY winter can be deadly, it's a matter of equipment, supply and organisation. The Soviets were better equipped. It's not as if the Russians don't feel cold, you know? They just bring appropriate clothing.

Suppose that Russian terrain was limited to Omsk

Assuming you mean "only as far east as Omsk", then no big deal. The only locations of value farther east than Omsk are Krasnoyarsk, Irkutsk, Chita, Novosibirsk and Vladivostok. It's almost as if very little has changed, actually. There's marginally less manpower and no need to keep troops tied up defending the Japanese border. The factories would relocate somewhere closer.

There was no Russian winter,

I suppose you mean to say there was no winter at all? That's impossible. 41/42 was indeed a cold winter, all the subsequent years weren't. Besides, cold weather severely limited Soviet counterattack options as well.

If you mean to say "what if 41/42 was warmer" then I may point out that he'd have to deal with the mud instead. An early freeze actually helped the Germans pushed forward, but they were still stopped at Moscow. Remember that with the German casualties from the Battle form Moscow accounted for, the Germans lost over 1 million men out of about 3 million by '42, losses they couldn't replace. It wasn't the winter that did it, it was the fighting.

and Hitler allowed the Wehrmacht to conduct the war based on logic and not Phobia.

This one is hard to define and quantify. I think what you mean is "just assume nothing went wrong" which is far too big of an assumption. What do you blame Hitler personally for in the '41 campaign?

Answer me please: Do you think the Russians could keep up the war let alone conquer the Germans eventually?

As I've shown you above, yes, and yes. The loss of lands east of Omsk isn't critical, if 41/42 was warmer then the Germans would have still stalled, and I don't think Hitler is personally responsible for most of the failures of the German army.

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

Well, The Germans had the road to Moscow pretty much clear, but Hitler, believing Russia to have been defeated, ordered his panzer army south to clsoe up a pocket in the Ukraine. That single move denied him any chance at Moscow.

 

[unmerged(99265)]

It's not as if the Russians don't feel cold, you know? They just bring appropriate clothing.

The act of war is an act of relativity. As if one says that Russians don't get drunk by drinking Vodka. There is a high level of difference between Germans accustomed to semi mild European climate and Russian and middle Asians whom the later are basically Mongolian descendants ( Racially) designed specifically for Tibetian climate and the former well developed both naturally and culturely for the bitter cold.
Just let me say in Russian favor that half the amount of alcohol they can intake just to feel light minded can easily send me to cementary.

"only as far east as Omsk"

Well no actually. What I meant was that the Russians could forever keep on the war as German manpower and supplies were never enough to push forever into infinite Russian land. By mentioning Omsk I meant the last really industrial region available to Russians ( I mean western Siberia)

There was no Russian winter,

Well I guess you did not get my point. I'm not living on illusions. When I said that assume there was no Russian winter I actually wanted to emphasize my initial thread on the unrealistic level of Russian IC. Of course if Russian cold could be made equvalant to IC they had all the IC of the world on their side.
I recall a sentence from General Heinrici's memoir while commanding the defencive front of German 5th army on the sledge of Moscow during the first winter " We were told to stay put until the preprations for the last offensive which would eventually led to the conquest of Moscow were made. But on my soldiers died constantly not by Russian offensive but by freezing to death" So if the Cold was equvalized to artilary shells, you are right the Russians had much IC on their behalf.

Hitler allowed the Wehrmacht to conduct the war based on logic and not Phobia

Hitler's well known Phobia was as probably everyone knows due to his sudden rise inside of the Military based Prussian military. Though the German command was bond to their oath of allegiance to Hitler it was not uncommon to hear the cracks about him such as " Bohemian corporal" or so. Hitler never deep inside his mind trusted the Wehrmacht high command. and as history has shown rightly so for the numerous plots and coups since the start of the Reich initiated by Wehrmacht Generals.
Therefore in a war that has taken nearly every available might of the Germans, it was not out of might and practically seen that German Wehrmacht was not as easy as the compaign of France e.g to conduct the war. One can read a few chapter of General Manstein's memoir "Verlone siege" to exactly see what I mean.

Well you don't blame much of German failures to Hitler I'm afraid I do. When Great German Generals Such as Guderian, Von Manstein, Runsted,.........
where relieved out of command in the most crucial times for the most unjust reasons simply through Hitler's persoanl fears, It was like leaving the bulk of German army with no brain in front of revenge thirsty Russians.

The most crucial of these mistakes happened during the first invasion of Moscow when the victorious Panzertruppen Guderian was preparing the last push towards Moscow when they were stripped of every panzer they had ( Thus halting their spearherad in front of Moscow) for the Kiev Siege. What every reasonable German General opposed as it was evident that the wise does not leave the big catch for the small one, but Hitler and his loyals would not listen to the petitions of army Group center simply because he trusted the Army group south more.
********************************************

Perhaps we both are going to insist on our reasonings forever. I respect yours actually as it is proven that eventually Russians conquered the Germans and not the reverse but I still say it was not the case with industrial might of Russians but a lot of consequences which eventually turned on Russian side.

 

[blue emu]

... The most crucial of these mistakes happened during the first invasion of Moscow when the victorious Panzertruppen Guderian was preparing the last push towards Moscow when they were stripped of every panzer they had ( Thus halting their spearherad in front of Moscow) for the Kiev Siege. What every reasonable German General opposed as it was evident that the wise does not leave the big catch for the small one, but Hitler and his loyals would not listen to the petitions of army Group center simply because he trusted the Army group south more...

This is simply not true.

Both von Kluge (the principle Army commander of von Bock's Army Group Center) and von Rundstedt (the commander of Army Group South, and the most respected soldier in the German Wehrmacht) favored the Kiev encirclement rather than an immediate advance on Moscow.

It was not the Kiev encirclement itself that was fatal to the German prospects in 1941... but rather the delay in carrying it out. Hitler's directive was issued on July 19th, but several weeks (including the best campaigning weather of the year) were wasted in futile arguments and procrastination... the operation did not in fact begin until about August 23rd (more than a month after it had been ordered!) and was not completed until September 26th. By then, the chance of reaching Moscow had gone.

 

[Myth]

The simple fact is that the Soviet Union outproduced Nazi Germany in terms of weapons. As Richard Overy states, "in the Soviet case 8 million tons of steel and 90 million tons of coal in 1943 were translated into 48,000 heavy artillery pieces and 24,000 tanks; Germany in the same year turned 30 million tons of steel and 340 million tons of coal into 27,000 heavy guns and 17,000 tanks" (Why the Allies Won, 222). By 1942 they were already outproducing Germany despite the chaos the German invasion brought to their industry and their massive territorial losses (ibid, 224). The game is not in favor of the Soviet industry, but likely actually in favor of German industry.

 

[Lennartos]

The simple fact is that the Soviet Union outproduced Nazi Germany in terms of weapons. As Richard Overy states, "in the Soviet case 8 million tons of steel and 90 million tons of coal in 1943 were translated into 48,000 heavy artillery pieces and 24,000 tanks; Germany in the same year turned 30 million tons of steel and 340 million tons of coal into 27,000 heavy guns and 17,000 tanks" (Why the Allies Won, 222). By 1942 they were already outproducing Germany despite the chaos the German invasion brought to their industry and their massive territorial losses (ibid, 224). The game is not in favor of the Soviet industry, but likely actually in favor of German industry.

A rather hot-headed, but interesting discussion..
however where did germans remaining 22 Million tons of steel go?
if i convert your post into game terms, you just said that USSR had 80IC while germany had 300... still USSR was producing more war materials.
so where did it all go?
was it wasted on rebuilding of industry / infrastructure?
building lots of TCs to remedy the supply problems?
what happened?

we should also remember that US supplies consisted of considerably much TC material, so they saved a lot of ICs on that.

 

[Myth]

The German industry was amazingly chaotic, worse than even what the AI could manage. Their industry had very little in the way of mass-production efficiency that the Soviet (and especially the American) industries did; they relied more on specialized craftmanship and, because the military kind of controlled the industry, whenever they wanted a technical change it was implemented. This, however, led to the disruption of assembly lines, such as they were, since they didn't particularly have any. Early in the war it took them 6 tons of aluminum to construct a single engine fighter, whereas by the end of the way, due to Milch's and Speer's reforms, it was taking only half a ton. That's a hell of a lot of waste. The Germans were just wasteful, the bureaucracy was a hell, their industry was on a peace-time level for half the war more or less and their war production was badly coordinated. The Soviets, on the other hand, had everything already quite well centralized and they just made it more efficient due to sheer necessity.

In game terms, if the Soviets don't have much actual IC then they should have a lot of effective IC, and also Germany should have a lot of actual IC (especially having conquered most of the rest of Europe) but their effective IC should be a hell of a lot lower.

 

[unmerged(99265)]

Both von Kluge (the principle Army commander of von Bock's Army Group Center) and von Rundstedt (the commander of Army Group South, and the most respected soldier in the German Wehrmacht) favored the Kiev encirclement rather than an immediate advance on Moscow

I just don't intend to continue this argument as it was a decision finally decided by the German high command. However don't forget that Von Runstedt ( with all my respect for his solidarity valor) was the one to be blamed for the loss a Dunkirk and the same way eventually the loss of Moscow. One point that most people tend not to see is that the Kiev siege was not directly aimed at the trophy of the Southern pocketed Russian armies. In reality conservative thinking Commanders like Von Runstedt ( who were more favored by Hitler) feared the possiblity of a Russian outbreak northward and cutting the advancing Army Group center. The illusion I say that arose from the thought of old Guard. In return mobility thinkers such as Guderian were convinced that the Russians in their then miserable saituation were at no way close to mounting a mobile attack while being hard pressed from everyside. Somehow in the world of mistrust between Hitler and Wehrmacht Von Runstedt seemed to be more favored by Fuhrer. The fact that is proven by the presence of the old Fieldmarshall as long as the Battle of Bulge while the unfortunate Guderian didn't last longer than winter 42.

In game terms, if the Soviets don't have much actual IC then they should have a lot of effective IC, and also Germany should have a lot of actual IC (especially having conquered most of the rest of Europe) but their effective IC should be a hell of a lot lower.

Perhpas the thread is losing its actual title. well for me it's a nice discussion after all. I have seldomn played Russia in the Game but there is a hint in the events of the war that clearly discribes my intention about soviet IC.
The US lend lease event.
Well there might be a reason why my homeland was named the bridge of victory.

The Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran was the invasion of Iran by British and Commonwealth forces and the Soviet Union, codenamed Operation Countenance, from August 25 to September 17, 1941. The purpose of the invasion was to secure Iranian oil fields and ensure supply lines (see Persian Corridor) for the Soviets fighting against Germany on the Eastern Front

source:wikipedia

There is a paralel timing between the end of miserable times for Russians and the occupation of neutral Iran. Through the south north trans Iranian railway unlimited amount of supplies and war materials were transferred to Russian front all US and British stock. What you my friends consider to be Russian industry were in reality lend leases of Western allies to stalin. No doubt US had virtually unlimited supplies and unharmed industry should the US industrial capacity be added to those of Russians no doubt the German industry were by no doubt lost.

The German industry was amazingly chaotic, worse than even what the AI could manage.

I guess that actually what you wanted to say was it was not designed on a soviet basis.In that case Well I shake hands with you. But this inefficient IC in your sense had a positive prospective in return. the German products had quality, what the Russian counterparts didn't. Rudel was right in his word in " stuka Pilot" book that German ME s hunted down the Russian Ritas like bees. When German industry designed Panzers the intention was to make a masterpiece. When Russian decided to produce armored units their first approach was to turn the Tractor assembly lines to Tank Production by adding a turret to the tractors.
Eventually the cheaper Russian way over powered the German precision design, but the quality based German industry doesn't seem inferior to me as the way my friend brought in his note. After all germany was not supposed to be a socialist state.

 

[Myth]

Perhpas the thread is losing its actual title. well for me it's a nice discussion after all. I have seldomn played Russia in the Game but there is a hint in the events of the war that clearly discribes my intention about soviet IC.
The US lend lease event.
Well there might be a reason why my homeland was named the bridge of victory.

AFAIK US lend lease only reallykicked in 1943 and onwards, once Germany had already effectively lost the war in the east, and was most valuable in terms of high grade aviation fuel the Soviet air force needed and the hundreds of thousands of trucks the Soviet army used to push home its own future offensives. It is largely irrelevant to the discussion of industry for the most part.

source:wikipedia

There is a paralel timing between the end of miserable times for Russians and the occupation of neutral Iran. Through the south north trans Iranian railway unlimited amount of supplies and war materials were transferred to Russian front all US and British stock. What you my friends consider to be Russian industry were in reality lend leases of Western allies to stalin. No doubt US had virtually unlimited supplies and unharmed industry should the US industrial capacity be added to those of Russians no doubt the German industry were by no doubt lost.

I've quite sure that the immense factories such as Magnitogorsk, which were created in the early 1930s if not earlier, were purely Soviet creations, with no help whatsoever from the USA. You're far overstating the impact of USA lend lease, and in the fields where it had its least impact.

I guess that actually what you wanted to say was it was not designed on a soviet basis.In that case Well I shake hands with you.

I have no idea what you're talking about there, but I'm fairly sure you're twisting my words, given how you've ignored a good half of what I said.

But this inefficient IC in your sense had a positive prospective in return. the German products had quality, what the Russian counterparts didn't. Rudel was right in his word in " stuka Pilot" book that German ME s hunted down the Russian Ritas like bees. When German industry designed Panzers the intention was to make a masterpiece. When Russian decided to produce armored units their first approach was to turn the Tractor assembly lines to Tank Production by adding a turret to the tractors.
Eventually the cheaper Russian way over powered the German precision design, but the quality based German industry doesn't seem inferior to me as the way my friend brought in his note. After all germany was not supposed to be a socialist state.

Germany lost the economic war. The Soviet Union alone outproduced it. Germany by the end of the war had great weapons, sure, but it couldn't make enough of them. It was a war of numbers much more than a war of how good those numbers were, and Germany lost.

In game, it is Germany who is favored IC-wise. In game, it is far too easy for Germany to win, simply because with a human Germany, its inflated industry is systematically put to use rather than utterly chaotically as historically. Even AI Germany can steamroll the Soviets.

 

[Pzt_Dragoon47]

During Barbarossa, the Russians had plenty of weapons to dish out to its soldiers. The main problem with the Soviets at the beginning of the war was the quality of their equipment. The Germans had the best equipment hands-down at the beginning up until the failure at Stalingrad. The Russian advantage was having mass produced the PPsh and organizing units to have many Avtomatchiki squads that were all equipped with these crude but effective submachine-guns. These weapons were used very effectively in close quarters combat where the Russians, maybe not excelled at this form of combat, but the Germans weren't used to Rattenkriegs.
After a while of warfare on the Russian steppes, around 1942 or so, the Germans still had the best equipment, but they couldn't give enough of it. Then other factors also hit Germany hard, like the Tiger. Around 4-5 thousand Panzer III's and IV's were sacrificed to make 25 new Tigers a month. A great tank, but overused with a high production time.
This lack of equipment by the end of 1942 showed on November 19, when the Russians pulled off Operation Ring and forced the Germans into the Kessel. The Russians attacked the Romanian battlegroups on Paulus' flanks to pull it off. The Romanians were armed with a mixture of old French rifles and stationary guns that Hitler couldn't even find ammunition for, another testament to Germany's industry collapsing and mistakes by Hitler.
By this time the Russians were outproducing the Germans for this offensive. The Russians could have lost the war by this time if the Sixth Army had broken the Russians in the Kessel, but the Russians would still hold the oil fields to the south, which, if Hitler didn't change it from being the primary objective, would have crippled the Russian mobile force.
Another testament to watching the Sixth Army tactics was shown in Operation Ring as it was a German encirclement tactic used by Paulus in the Battle of Kharkov by attacking weak forces on the flanks. But Paulus didn't know the situation so he could not have forseen such a large Armored offensive.
The poor attempt to supply an entire army by air was also a realization that the Germans no longer had the proper industry as the amount of transports were ridiculously low and they couldn't carry very much, and when Pitomnik was taken, over 500 transports were captured and scrapped for metal or used by the Russian 9th.
Overall, the Russian resources, not their factories won the war for them and almost lost it. The masses of metal from the Urals, very poor, but it allowed for mass production. The oil from the Caucasus, which Hitler should have taken. The coal mines all over Russia, which fueled the all-important Russian train network, many say that if Sverdlosk was taken, the Russian military would collapse due to lack of transportation to the major cities.
Anyway, those are my 50 cents on this topic.

 

[blue emu]

One of the main flaws in the German industrial effort was inherent in the structure of the Nazi political system. Hitler used a "divide and rule" policy, even with his own supporters. German industry was never logically coordinated in the same way that British (or Soviet) industry was... there were always a dozen different over-lapping projects, run by different departments who refused to share information or coordinate the division of raw materials or skilled workers. Factionalism and personal rivalries dissipated much of the energies that might have gone into producing weapons in the needed quantities. You can name your own examples, but you might start with Henschel vs Porche (Tiger Tanks), the several different projects to develop Anti-Aircraft rockets, multiple competing projects for developing Rocket or Jet interceptors, etc. Symptomatic of this wasteful dispersal of effort is the TOE structure of the crucial German Panzer Divisions... by 1942, a typical German Panzer Division had about thirty-five different types of vehicles in its Order of Battle. The typical Russian Tank Division had TWO.

 

[unmerged(59077)]

You're far overstating the impact of USA lend lease, and in the fields where it had its least impact.

Complete agreement.

Even AI Germany can steamroll the Soviets.

And often does. Which is more than it deserves, but is fine for the purposes of making the game fun.

 

[unmerged(99265)]

Originally Posted by Myth
You're far overstating the impact of USA lend lease, and in the fields where it had its least impact.



Complete agreement.

The Trans Iraninan railway was a design of Germans. Therefore like most of the German projects in Iran it was designed to live for generations for normal use. By the end of the war while the Persians where practically denied the use of railway ( just to emphasize the monopoly) the entire railway required a full overhaul with no simple working condition engine left in its stock. The amount of Western aids to russians through Iranian railway was in one word unbelievable.
Perhaps you intend to emphasize that US entered the war on its late phases
just to take advantage of the chaotic war. I don't agree, US was present since the moment her first shipment of aids reached the Liverpool harbour. May be you don't agree but I'm sure that the British who were in immidiate need of every supply for the sheer survival could not have supplied the Russians with the amount of goods passing through south north Iran. The products were all US. Perhaps only handed over by British authorities to Russians.

Quote:
Even AI Germany can steamroll the Soviets.



And often does. Which is more than it deserves, but is fine for the purposes of making the game fun.

The fact that AI germany can steamroll the Soviets is the boast I give to the quality of the Game. As Game says in a sensible war the Germans were supposed to be victors. Without the panzer divisions of Army grup center the German artillery reached the Kremlin walls. Do you really think that without subtracting the Panzergrupp Guderian from the Moscow front the City would have stood on her feet like it did in real history?

Playing file wustenburg ( I'm sure the spell is wrong the year 44 game) The bulk of German armies were still commanded by Manstein, Guderian von kleist ,......... what the AI thought to be correct. But in real world all the present Generals were dismissed by Hitler and replaced by Nazi fanatics. The German high command must have been really short in personnel to assign Himmler as the Commander of army Group vistula perhaps . the Game works on logic the German high command in the majority of war did not.

a typical German Panzer Division had about thirty-five different types of vehicles in its Order of Battle. The typical Russian Tank Division had TWO.

Correct. Perhaps it was a fluke. Specially in the course of war with the tremendous need for spares and different supplies. but this was German industry. One can make the deduction that they intended to have a sophisticated army. yet failed.

Yesterday I was looking at an old german fork. The lower stick instead of being a stick was a blade in fact. After much thinking I realized that the blade was designed for holding the object in the air tighter. Surely it's a thought that would never reach the minds of Russian fork mass producers.