The Nazi A-Bomb

[Doomdark]

I have heard a lot of conflicting stories concerning the Nazi efforts to construct atomic devices in WW2. For example, I've heard that they abandoned plans for the A-bomb due to a calculating error by Heisenberg. Instead they supposedly concentrated on research into the H-bomb, which is why they produced heavy water in Norway. Other theories state that new versions of the V-2 were intended as carriers for either the H-bomb or a kind of melt-down uranium bomb code-named "Virus House". The nuclear armed V-2s would be launched from U-boats or special pods towed by U-boats. Even more powerful ICBM versions were also contemplated.

However, I've never seen any convincing evidence for any of this. (Except that submarine rocket launches were indeed planned.) On the other hand, it seems beyond doubt that the Germans were researching nuclear reactors. This also explains their use of heavy water, since they were using it as a moderator (erroneously believing graphite to be inferior). The Heisenberg counting error appears to be a myth though:

http://www.bullatomsci.org/issues/1992/s92/s92.goldberg.html

(This is an excellent article BTW, but it does not answer all questions.)

Does anyone know of any kind of evidence at all that the Nazis were in fact developing anything more lethal than nuclear reactors?

 

[unmerged(3408)]

Great post. The Nazi's needed several things in roder to develop their bomb.

1) The people to build a bomb. Many of the smartest scientists on the European continent were Jewish. Due to the race laws, Nazi Germany suffered a tremendous "brain drain," as men like Oppenheimer immigrated to the US. Also, Hitler and his men did not trust "Jewish math." (Actual quote.) Thank goodness. For their own racism helped to prevent them from having the best scientists in the world.

2) The technical ability to build a bomb. Now in order to make fissionable Uranium, you must put it thru a specific process wherein you bombard a uranium core with slow moving protons. In order to do this, you must submerge the uranium in a bath of "heavy water." The water is "heavy" because it contains high amounts of a substance called deuterium-this allows the protons to hit the core at just the right speed.

What this means: Well after the Nazi's took Norway, they gained possession of a hydro-electric dam which was collecting deuterium from water (where it occurs naturally in trace amounts.) A British SAS unit was dispatched to blow up the damn (which the allies knew the Nazis were using to get deuterium). The SAS team succeeded and from that point on, the Nazis were out of the heavy water business.

Without the scientists, they couldn't make a bomb. And even if they succeeded in designing one, they didn't have the heavy water for a fissionable Uranium core. The US had both of these crucial things, and history turned out differently.

 

[unmerged(4783)]

Just one detail, Petrus.

Deuterium is an isotope of hydrogen. It has a proton and a neutron in the nucleus, instead of just a proton. Tritium is another isotope of hydrogen (2 neutrons).

 

[unmerged(2539)]

In case you missed this from a thread about if the Nazis won ww2.http://www.bullatomsci.org/issues/1992/s92/s92.goldberg.html

Hannibal

 

[unmerged(3408)]

Of course. But I didn't want it to get too technical. Just incase some Iraqi's were looking for ideas on the EU forum. Notice I didn't get into an examination of Tritium yield boosting. This post is bound to get the attention of the FBI web snoopers anyway.

*Dear, FBI, all of the above can be found in any college physics book.

 

[unmerged(4783)]

Sorry, Petrus.

It´s the old college professor syndrome kicking in.

 

[Gjakoll]

As an interesting aside, in 1930's American baseball, there was aplayer by the name of Moe Berg. Berg, was a catcher during the summer, and after the season was over, he went back to his "day job" as a Wall Street lawyer.

Berg wasn't the best ball player, but he was probably the smartest person ever to play major league baseball. He was known to read latin texts on road trips, was reputed to have an eidetic memory (commonly called a photographic memory), spoke several languages fluently,and, iirc, possessed several post-graduate degrees from assorted universities, at a time in which almost no player went past high school.

When America was drawn into WWII by the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor, Berg volunteered to join the OSS. Since Berg was fluent in German, the OSS arranged to smuggle him into Switzerland in 1943 to attend a physics symposium at which Heisenberg was speaking. His mission was to determine if Heisenberg was on the right track toward developing the Bomb, and if he showed too much knowledge, Berg was ordered to assassinate Heisenberg, having been provided with a concealable pistol to kill him with.

Fortunately for Heisenberg, when the topic turned to the area Berg was supposed to probe, he displayed a complete lack of the critical knowledge, and Berg departed switzerland with no one the wiser. I find the most interesting part of this whole scheme to be the fact that the OSS didn't have to tutor Berg on the physics involved, because he appearently knew enough on his own to at least understand what Heisenberg was saying.

There is a fascinating biography on Moe Berg (unfortunately, I can't remember its name right now) which more throughly details this episode. I read about this mission in a WWII history magazine, and thought it might make an interesting addition to this discussion.

 

[unmerged(3408)]

All true. Moe Berg also gathered some intelligence for the OSS when his team played an exabition game in Japan prior to the war.

Once Moe Berg and Yogi Bera (another baseball legend) were in the dugout during practice. Bera was reading a comic book, Berg was memorizing an anatomy textbook. Bera finishes his comic and looks at Moe Berg. "How'd your's end?" he asked.

True story.

 

[unmerged(4876)]

The Germans had 3 companies working on the atom bomb, to increase the chances that one company would "hit it big." Fortunately, they were all jelous of each other, and were loath to share information. Another stike against the German nuclear project...

The Germans also lost Niels Bohr, a Danish nuclear scientist, as the Allies smuggled him out. While the Germans knocked on his front door, he went out the back, pausing a moment to take a bottle of hard water disguised in a beer bottle. He fled to Sweden, w/help of the Danish resistance, and was smuggled out to England in a mosquito plane. He blanked out on the flight, but was spared as the pilot dropped altitude, realizing his predicament.

Unfortunately, the Allies found that he contributed little to the nuclear project, as his work was outdated. And his beer bottle was the wrong one; it contained beer.

Also, towards the end of the was, the Japps were working day-and-night on a long-range bomber to carry a nuke to New York, or Washington. Reportedly, they recieved a shipment of a radioactive isotope from the Germans, to drop over San Francisco, but nothing came out of it.

Just as well...

 

[unmerged(3627)]

Originally posted by dave3l
I find the most interesting part of this whole scheme to be the fact that the OSS didn't have to tutor Berg on the physics involved, because he appearently knew enough on his own to at least understand what Heisenberg was saying.

That's an eidetic memory for you. Even if you find something utterly incomprehensible, you can still remember it word for word.

 

[Gjakoll]

But remembering it word for word is not the same as understanding it. If I had an eiditic memory, I could remember a text written in Sanskrit word for word, but unless I understood Sanskrit it wouldn't do me any good to be able to write the text down word for word.

 

[unmerged(2539)]

Pfaahh, thats nothing, i have phonetic hearing, which means i remeber everything i have every heard. Not helping much here though...

Hannibal the kidder.

 

[unmerged(3408)]

I think the point is that Moe Berg was so intelligent (aside from his powers of memory) that he understood enough to know if Heisenberg knew what he was talking about.

I'm mean, we all can fake it at a cocktail party. "Oh I loved that novel…" Berg didn't have to fake it.

 

[unmerged(5120)]

In any case, Assuming the Germans had built an A-bomb by say, late 1944 or early 1945 (cant' see how they could have done it earlier), they probably wouldn't have been able to make any decisive use of it.

Flying a He-177 to any place outside Germany (and especially to London!) without it being shot down would have been quite an achievement. They didn't have a vector to shoot it across the Atlantic. Only thing they could have done was hide it and wait for the Allies to move on top of it (à la Turtledove). That would have caused lots of casualties, but wouldn't have changed the course of the war

 

[sunzoner]

Just having the bomb is enough. Remember, the USA did not invade the USSR/China/Iraq/Iran/North Korea because of it.

 

[unmerged(5120)]

No it's not enough just to have it. You must also be able to land it on a critical target.

The soviets in 1950 had strategic bombers and a respectable air force, so they could actually use their bombs. And they had more than just a couple.

By the second half of 1944, the Germans just didn't have the ability to contest Allied air superiority enough to send a loaded He-177 over London.

Furthermore, had the Allies known about the German bomb, they'd have shifted the strat offensive to blast whatever runway that kind of aircraft could take off from.

A good question: where would the Germans have found the uranium to build a bomb? If my memory's good, it takes 3-4t of pure natural uranium to get enough U-235 to achieve a critical mass, and that's assuming your refining process is 99% efficient. That's quite a lot in 1944...

Of course, if you use plutonium it takes much less, but then it's a bit more advanced process throughout.

 

[unmerged(592)]

No Germany could not. If you are into what-if's however this is a different story. In Ronneburg, Thuringia, there was plenty of it just to be mined.it only had to be found by some lucky incident. The soviets did so.

 

[Malthus]

The last word on the subject is cost. Of all of the wartime powers, only the USA could possibly have afforded the unbelievable expense of the Manhattan project. Even if Germany had the Jewish scientists, raw materials, delivery systems, etc. the sheer scale of the undertaking would have been prohibitive.

The USSR did of course succeed. But that was after knowing that it could be done, and with considerable help from espionage.

As for delivery systems ... there is no need necessarily to drop a nuke from a bomber, or even in a missile. For sheer nuclear terrorism, the nazis could simply have placed a nuke in New York harbour from a U-boat. Many other delivery options were available then, and still are - which is why "star wars" - type defensive systems, even if they work, are a poor defence against nuclear terrorism.

 

[unmerged(3408)]

The last word on the subject is cost. Of all of the wartime powers, only the USA could possibly have afforded the unbelievable expense of the Manhattan project.

Costs indeed. Adjusted for inflation, the U.S. spent $20.7 billion dollars on the Manhattan project. (Including the cost for Project Silverplate to modify 46 B-29 bombers to carry the bomb.)


Compare this to other costs of the war:

All bombs, mines and grenades - $31.5 billion

Small arms materiel (not incl. ammunition) - $24 billion

All tanks - $64 billion

All artillery - $37.6 billion


I find it hard to imagine that Germany, on the ropes as it was and suffering the total destruction of it's industrial sector, could have fought the war, and still had enough resources left to pay for the development of their own bomb.

 

[unmerged(5120)]

It's difficult to compare costs from one country to another during a war. the only thing that matters then is, what scarce resources must be allocated to the project.

Things like engineers, skilled labor, raw materials, etc..

And delivery systems really do matter. The U-boot-in-NYC-harbor scenario is Turtledove stuff. The Nazis wouldn't have cowed the US with that kind of threat. And even if they had pulled it out, it wouldn't have taken the US out of the war, it'd only have given them another Remember Pearl Harbour, only against Germany and to the 10th power.