The Never-Ending Sacrifice

[TC Pilot]

Edited 3/3 -

Instructions for Krisz:
-We play EU2 now using the hosting service Gameranger. Download, install it, and set up an account.
-In your EU2 folder, rename EU2.exe to FTG.exe
-Before the session starts, someone (probably Drake) will host a game channel under FTG
-Join the channel
-Click on "Room" in the top left corner. Go to "Options"
-In the next screen, click "Browse" and do a search for the EU2.exe you renamed to FTG.exe

Because EU2 and FTG are so similar, we are in effect "fooling" Gameranger into thinking we are hosting a FTG game, allowing us to avoid all the lag and connectivity issues of yesteryear.

ROSTER:
Admiral Drake - Byzantium
Dane - Bavaria
Delian - Brittany
HAL - Poland
King John - Porto
Krisz - Genoa
TC Pilot - Hanseatic League
Urko - Scotland


RULES

Vassalization:
If you get vassalised by a human player you must stay that way for 20 years, unless the overlord chooses to break it. After 20 years the vassal can break vassalage, but must do so by DOWing the overlord, unless otherwise agreed between them and their erstwhile master.

1. Any NAP agreement signed for a duration exceeding 20 years is null for whatever portion extends beyond the 20 year period, meaning that either side can declare it invalid past that point without taint to their honor. This does not prevent from regularly renewing NAP agreements, but at no given time can anybody be sure of the security of a border for decades and decades or even centuries, as often occurs.
2. This makes #1 a little redundant, but now any agreement with clauses that extend for over 20 years can be broken after the 20 year period without a loss of honor.
3. As a vassal :
* You cannot enter any other alliance than that of your overlord, nor start one of your own unless ok'd by your leader(excepting AI that are your vassals).
* You must accept a proposal of TA/MA from your overlord.
* You are not allowed to start any wars without permission of your overlord.
* You cannot give MA to any power without your Overlord's consent.
* You are *not* required to dow someone at the command of your overlord, send him cash at his command, provide troop support, or help him in any other way not included in the five clauses above.

4. The land-naval slider will not be reset to 5 between every session. Because the number of provinces, the different scale of wealth compared to WATK, and the nature of Interregnum events/setup, I think this is worth experimenting. If gross imbalance becomes apparent, this rule may be reconsidered.

5. Using certain exploits is forbidden. See below for more details.
* Attacking an enemy fleet with pirates, and attacking with significantly small fleets to hinder an enemy shore landing.
* Releasing one or more vassals during wartime, to hinder an enemy.
* Force-burning of manufactories, i.e. repeated move and halt orders to an
army in a province with a manufactory.
* Using lag to your advantage. This includes (but is not limited to):
Sending lag colonists, building lag fortresses, sending lag missionaries,
using lag diplomats. (The exception is using lag diplomats to send cash).
* Declaring a 'fake' war on a country, with the aim to:
* Increase the stability of the nation you declare war on.
* Change the religion of a protestant or Counter-Reformed-Catholic
nation back to Catholicism before the Edict of Tolerance.
* Exploiting Simultanity: Using the game engine to break a deal, that would
occur simultaneously in the real word. This includes (but is not limited
to) the 'sale' of something in game. A break of any aspect of a deal after the initial exchange, like a refusal to continue to make payments or maintain a monopoly, is ok. However, if a peace deal is made that requires staggered payments or monopoly rights or anything like that, it MUST be honored by the tributary for the duration of the five year truce.
* Converting from Catholicism to either Counter-reformed-Catholicism or
Protestantism and then switching back to Catholiscism before the Edict
of Tolerance. This rule may be reconsidered as need arises due to any differences in Interregnum's Reformation events.
* Trading maps with the AI.
* Sending loans to the AI.
* Signing a peace deal with the AI, that bankrupts it in the same day.
* Using MA to deprive another country of supplies without being at war with them
* Using MA to place 1 ship fleets in another country's ports in order to maintain them there for spying without the other person having any way of dislodging them.

8. No exploration with 100 or 100+ ships. Within known seazones avoiding attrition with 100+ ships is alright.
9. When pausing the game, communicate with all other players
10. * Breaking a truce, except when the truce is a result of a province swap
deal in game, or when ok'd by both parties. You are not allowed to dow AI alliance members or vassals of someone you have a truce with.
11. Brandenburg will become Prussia in 1701 no matter what
12. Spanish Bankruptcy events will be slept
13. gold and trade inflation will be added in 1575 and 1650, gold and trade will be added up and for every 500 combined income you will gain 1% inflation
14. No claiming DOTF or converting to counter reformed Catholicism.
15. No trading maps. Sacking capitals to gain maps is permissible.
16. If you DOW a vassal of another player you must dow the overlord. If this isn't possible, you must break RM/MA so the other player can DOW you without any stabhit.

Force peace rule:

Case 1: War between two nations.
If one side manages 99 warscore, the loser is at -3 stability and the war has been going on for at least 5 years, the winner can force peace with a stab-hitting peace offer.

Case 2: War between an alliance of 2 or more versus 1 nation (gang).
For any separate peace, see case 1.
If the alliance leader wants to force peace for the alliance against the 1 nation, he requires 99 alliance warscore and 99 warscore of his own (separately).

Case 3: War between 2 alliances of 2 or more nations.
For any non-alliance peace between two nations, see case 1.
For any alliance to separate nation peace deal (for any member of the other alliance, even leader), see case 2.
If the winning alliance's leader wants to force-peace the whole other alliance, he needs 99 warscore for his alliance on the other alliance and 99 warscore of his own against the losing alliance leader. It is the losing leader's stability that is taken into consideration.

Warship Rule
After 1500, warships may not be used in combat in European waters. If warships engage in a battle in this situation, they must retreat at the start of fighting.

Vassal Rule
Players who vassalize AI countries are expected to make a good-faith effort to annex them in a timely manner, particularly if they have low decentralization. The vanilla map means the effects will not be too pronounced, but if you're using exploits in a 15-year old game, you probably have other, bigger issues to work out.


Military Access
If you have military access with another player, you must cancel it if they request you do so. This includes MA in player-vassals.
You cannot ask for MA with AI countries outside Europe, except by demanding it in a war.

Starting the second session, players will receive 2 randomly-generated generals and admirals. After 1550, they will receive 1 random conquistador and explorer each.If a player has no ports, the explorer will be exchanged for a 2nd conquistador.

If issues or problems arise in the course of the session not covered by these rules, as GM I reserve the right to issue new rules or suggest changes. Changes should only be made to address issues of gross imbalance or unfairness, and in the interests of the health and enjoyment of the campaign. For example, changes might be considered to address issues of game mechanics, but not "Country A has conquered half of Europe, nerf them." Ideally, the game is both friendly and competitive. Ultimately, we each want to win, but this is also a game.
_____________________________________________________




Since I seem to have been made GM by popular acclamation, I thought I'd create this thread as an organizing tool for interested parties. Rules, time, and such will be added in over time.

For now, it seems like we already have a sizable pool of interested players. Aside from myself, here is who I've heard back from:

Admiral Drake
King John
HAL
Delian
Dane
Ampo
Krisz
Urko

We will likely be continuing with the 15:00-19:00 CET timeslot on Sundays. Hopefully we can get this started by March 6.

The Interregnum scenario won the vote. You can download it here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/1fro85mv799zh72/Interregnum_1.08.zip

Installation should be as simple as copy-pasting the files directly into your EU2 folder.

If you have any country preferences, please post them now, and I'll put together a roster.

First thing's first, we need to decide on a scenario or game mode. At the moment, there are three main ideas at play. While some of you have already said something about it, I'd still like your feedback here, so it's all nicely organized and easily accessible in one place.

So, either we can play:
1. The usual: 1419 or 1453 WATK-UMP scenario
2. The Interregnum scenario (alt-history, vanilla map)
3. Diplomacy Universalis (players switch countries every few turns)

I can provide more information if you need it.

 

[delian]

2.
1.
3.

In that order

 

[Barca]

I'd prefer DU, but I don't think we have the votes so I'll vote for a normal/watk scenario. I'd rather we didn't play the UMP scenario from last time though. The overlapping cultures and cores are good, but pagan West Africa/Indonesia/COTs are a big problem.

Also, I think we should allow vassals until some date, maybe 1550, because money is the limiting factor in early wars, not manpower. It'd mess up support limits, but I think it would be too difficult to edit all the diplo-annexations which need to take place early game.

 

[delian]

I'd prefer DU, but I don't think we have the votes so I'll vote for a normal/watk scenario. I'd rather we didn't play the UMP scenario from last time though. The overlapping cultures and cores are good, but pagan West Africa/Indonesia/COTs are a big problem.

Also, I think we should allow vassals until some date, maybe 1550, because money is the limiting factor in early wars, not manpower. It'd mess up support limits, but I think it would be too difficult to edit all the diplo-annexations which need to take place early game.

feels like a obvious thing to not forbid vassals in the early game. If we did, it would seriously crippel countries like BB and Austria.

 

[admiral drake]

4 (eu4)
1
2

can sub 3

 

[King John]

1
3
2

I think we should try a zero sum rule in this game for qual, offensive, and central. Have countries compete against each other for movement on those three sliders(you would move everyone backward equally after each session until the total combined clicks of all countries on each slider averaged out to, say, 5. Those that more progress in one slider would end up ahead on that one, while falling behind in others. Also, reform events would count for more than they normally do, and give the game a little more historical flavor than usual.

 

[Urko]

Hi TC. Thanks for calling me . Shall your reign, may it be arbitrary or fair, last long!

2
1
3

(I don't have EU4 yet, but I'll play any eu2 option).

 

[TC Pilot]

I think we should try a zero sum rule in this game for qual, offensive, and central. Have countries compete against each other for movement on those three sliders(you would move everyone backward equally after each session until the total combined clicks of all countries on each slider averaged out to, say, 5. Those that more progress in one slider would end up ahead on that one, while falling behind in others. Also, reform events would count for more than they normally do, and give the game a little more historical flavor than usual.

Can you elaborate or provide an example? I'm not sure what you mean by this.

 

[King John]

I guess it's a little abstract. Well, say you have three players in the game(for the sake of a simple example), player 1, player 2, and player 3. They start out each at 5 quality, offensive, and centralization.

Player 1 makes 3 moves toward quality in the session.
Player 2 makes 3 moves toward centralization
Player 3 makes moves 3 offensive, and lets say they also got 3 centralization via event.

So, after this, Player 1 is at 8, 5, 5 (quality, centralization, offensive)
Player 2 has 5, 8, 5
Player 3 has 5, 8, 8

So then you add the values of the types of sliders together, and you get 18 quality, 21 central, and 18 offensive.

Now, the idea at this point would be to get these numbers back to the set point that you choose. Lets say we pick 15 for each(The total of all players clicks on each slider). You would have to take away 3 from qual and offensive, and 6 from central to get these numbers back to their zero sum. The idea would be to do this evenly, and the result would be that they end up with:

Player 1: 7, 3, 4
Player 2: 4, 6, 4
Player 3: 4, 6, 7

The end result would be much greater differentiation between countries, as there would be no such thing as maximizing sliders(at least, not these ones, but the others are usually less straightforward). Plus, countries will be constantly changing. For the entire game, all players would have to be thinking about how to maneuver their sliders in an environment where everything is relative(rather than "Oh, it's 1700 and everyone has perfect military sliders. We're all special! Yay everyone!).

 

[TC Pilot]

How would one address fractional changes? So, if there were less than (let's use our player roster) 9 relevant slider changes? Or some number of slider changes not divisible by 9?

 

[bluelotus]

1
2
3

I can offer a picture of me standing on the HMS Belfast looking mighty fine to whoever who votes with me. Alternatively, I will refrain from sharing the picture if you vote with me.

 

[King John]

I think best would be to subtract the moves that could be evenly subtracted, and let the rest spillover into next session.

 

[HALNY (HAL)]

I don't want to play EU2 game. It will burn out like last one did. I suggest we play modded EU4.

 

[King John]

Well, I'm not going to be playing another one anytime soon if this one burns out in the same way(by a few players deciding they're suddenly bored with it).

 

[bluelotus]

I am here to play EU2 and not 4. I was actually thinking about past campaigns the very same day TC sent me a message.

 

[TC Pilot]

Yeah, we're not turning this into an EU4 game. Also, barring some massive swing in the votes, we won't be doing the Diplomacy setup.

 

[TC Pilot]

Alright, so after putting together everyone's choices here and in discussions over Skype, it seems Interregnum has the votes. If you have any questions or concerns about this, please let me know.

The fact this is a mod using the vanilla map as opposed to WATK should address some of the issues we had in the last game that Dane broached, namely vassals and ROTW-setups.

One important concern is the issue of sliders. Many important events require certain slider positions, including land/naval. I think we should unlock this slider.

In any event, here is a screenshot of the alt-history setup of Europe:

As you can see, all of the usual great powers do not exist. Some can be recreated, such as France or England, through certain event chains, but others simply can't be. Ultimately, the mod is designed so that there are a number of significant regional powers which can be grown into great powers. The possible exceptions to this are Al-Andalus and the Caliphate, both of which I regard as being too overpowered for good balance if played. Al-Andalus, for example, starts out with more provinces than Castile, along with early events allowing for the easy conquest of the rest. The flipside of that is there's a later event chain with provokes most of Europe into launching a Crusade, with large bonuses if they ultimately succeed (which would requiring grinding Al-Andalus into the dust). Years ago, I created a short event chain that would make the Iberian minors a viable alternative.

Anyway, here are the generally viable countries per region:

British Isles
Eire - a unified Ireland with Welsh vassals. A strong naval and trading presence, as well as some early exploration potential. It's essentially the Portugal of Interregnum.
Scotland - Dominates the north of Britain, and can quickly unify the island.
Wessex - the rump of England, starting with the historical Henry V and Bedford, that requires a bit of luck and skill at the beginning to become a major. If it expands enough, it can "recreate" England (without tag change) and gains access to leaders like Marlborough, Wellington, and Nelson.

Gaul
Brittany - another strong naval and exploration power, with a solid core with which to extend its influence either into France or England.
Burgundy - a solid contender for dominance of France. Has two options to restore the French kingdom, which gives access to a number of nice cores and events.
Savoy - powerful in the south of France. Can expand in a number of directions, as it has French, Occitan, and Italian culture, though it will lose one of those eventually via event.

Iberia
Like I said before, Al-Andalus is overpowered and unbalanced. I edited Porto into the country which can inherit the rest of the Iberian states and eventually restore the Kingdom of Portugal and eventually Asturias as lord of all Iberia.

Italy
Genoa - Controls Venice, giving it enormous trade and income potential.
Sicily - very good early kings and a solid base in southern Italy. Also gets events encouraging a crusade in North Africa.
Milan - Rich, owns northern Italy, good early monarchs. You'll need to pick Sforza when the last Visconti dies, otherwise you'll set yourself up to be vassalized and annexed by Swabia. Not much in the way of events, since it's supposed to get inherited by Swabia

Germany
Bavaria - Holy Roman Emperor, with lands scattered around Germany and the Low Countries. Can easily dominate Germany and then Europe
Swabia - the Habsburg domain, with events to inherit the German Alpine provinces as well as Milan. If it achieves this, with Italian and German accepted culture it has the potential to absolutely dominate in the mid to late game.
Saxony - An alternative German country for those who don't like having quite as many provinces as Bavaria

Scandinavia
Hanseatic League - a strong country in the north of Germany with a few scattered holdings elsewhere like Novgorod (can acquire London and Florence), with a solid potential to unify Scandinavia/North Germany and go exploring.
Nordridge - a union of Denmark and Sweden. The most obvious contender for a unified Scandinavia

East of the Oder
Teutonic Order - it's the Knights, but with weak neighbors surrounding it. Gets Crusade events for Russian expansion
Poland - a weaker version of historical Poland, but with the potential via event to become the equivalent of historical Sweden in the 1600s
Cossacks - perhaps the weakest Russian alternative, but with a strong cavalry force and an interesting event chain to form either a monarchy or republic, it can dominate the steppe

Balkans
Byzantium - it's Byzantium. What more do you want? Well, how about one of the most complicated and convoluted succession event trees imaginable? It can also have a French-style revolution around 1700.
Hungary - another possibility. A solid country, which the AI always seems to build a truly gargantuan army with.

The 'East'
Mameluks - a strategic position with a solid economic and military base, though it eventually gets a number of events that can hurt it
Kingdom of Jerusalem - way too crippled by its "immersion" setup, namely its provinces are wrong-culture wrong-religion. Also neighbors the most powerful country in the game, which also wants to kill it
Caliphate - Basically Ottomans moved from Constantinople to Baghdad. Way too powerful for balance
Il-Khanate - Mongol horde with the potential to absolutely wreck the Caliphate and burn Baghdad to the ground. Expand, expand, expand in the early game and just brute-force your way through.

 

[bluelotus]

Hungary in the Balkans...? I beg to differ! In any case, I'd definitely be up to playing it (in case I get to look at the event files before making a final decision).

 

[TC Pilot]

Heh, it was the closest region I could fit it into.

Here is where you can download the mod. You should be able to just copy-paste it all into your EU2 folder: http://www.mediafire.com/download/1fro85mv799zh72/Interregnum_1.08.zip

Now would also be the time to start giving your country preferences if you have any.

 

[Barca]

Assuming Al Andalus and the Caliphate are offlimits....

Teutons
Swabia (if no Bavaria and Milan)
Burgundy

After looking at Eire's leader file in more detail and seeing that their early explorers have very short lifespans I've updated my preferences