Themata vs. Charlemagne

[Rylock]

So here's the thing.

I've been slowly prepping the Themata sub-mod for integration into CK2+ ...and then today's Charlemagne info came out, in particular this. That essentially says that the Byzantine Empire gets access to viceroys early, and that Byzantine duke-level titles are called Themes.

Which is really what the Themata sub-mod was trying to re-create... though in the sub-mod, all dukes in the empire were subject to the emperor's will and could have their title (potentially, since rebelling is always an option) revoked if the emperor doesn't like them.

So I'm uncertain what the future of the sub-mod's integration should be, in part because I don't know a lot about how the Themata system is actually supposed to work. Were there no actual hereditary dukes in the ERE? Should the emperor be able to revoke ducal titles, or was this just a way to reflect that such titles should be reverting to the emperor's control?

 

[loup99]

I would add it for the flavour, but adapt the other mechanism with CM's.

 

[exin]

The ERE, until much later when Feudalism started taking control over Europe, worked on the old Roman ideals. Up until the middle of the 7th century, the ERE actually used the province system imposed by Diocletian and Constantine the Great. The first Themes were built around the military camps of the Roman Army. These Themes were controlled by a Strategos, aka the Governing General or the Military Governor, however you would call him. He was a unification of Diocletian's civil governors (praesides) and military commanders (duces).

Here is where it gets interesting. So the Strategoi were governors who controlled both civilian and military affairs of their Themes, but at the end of the day there were the Highest Ranked officials in the Theme. Aka they were part of the Imperial Administration. Now here is the fun part, as the Theme system evolved and went in to the later centuries, the Eastern (Anatolian) Strategoi received their salary (yes salary) from the State Treasury. They were paid officials. While the Western (European) Strategoi had to raise their salary from the proceeds of the lands they ruled in the name of the Emperor, aka from their Themes.

After the 10th and 11th centuries, when the Theme system began to decline, the Strategoi reverted slowly back to a military position, the civilian affairs being pushed down to lower officials in the Theme. So by the 13th century Strategoi meant General as they controlled only the military affairs. And given that the Themes formed to settle the soldiers and create a perpetual conscription, aka you the soldier agreed to be given state land to work and profit from, and you in term pledged that all your male family members will serve in the army.

So I guess the conclusion is the Themes were a form of military organization, and their leaders, the Strategoi, were never more than Officers and State Officials, paid by the State or with the proceeds of the lands of the State. So yes, I believe the Emperor had full control of them, as would any leader have over his Generals. The Theme system was anything but feudal.

 

[Rylock]

Then what I'm going to do is implement the part of the submod that involves "imperial decadence" (which I actually like, although I think I'll add a few ways for a successful emperor to drive down the decadence effects and reverse the decline) and leave out the actual themata part -- namely the part where the duke has to petition for their title. I'm going to assume that the viceroy system in CM will do what this need. If not, the events can always be put back into the mod.

 

[exin]

Then what I'm going to do is implement the part of the submod that involves "imperial decadence" (which I actually like, although I think I'll add a few ways for a successful emperor to drive down the decadence effects and reverse the decline) and leave out the actual themata part -- namely the part where the duke has to petition for their title. I'm going to assume that the viceroy system in CM will do what this need. If not, the events can always be put back into the mod.

The Viceroy system will be good, especially with the King Viceroys and Duke Viceroys, since the Themes started out big and in time became smaller and smaller and more numerous. But you could add an event to the Viceroy system. When the Viceroy dies, and in Vanilla the title reverts back, you could add an event giving the Emperor the option to give the title to the heir of the Viceroy. If he wants to gratify that dynasty.

Or maybe a Honorary Title? Give it to the Viceroys you like and upon their death their title passes on to their heir?

 

[Rylock]

The Viceroy system will be good, especially with the King Viceroys and Duke Viceroys, since the Themes started out big and in time became smaller and smaller and more numerous. But you could add an event to the Viceroy system. When the Viceroy dies, and in Vanilla the title reverts back, you could add an event giving the Emperor the option to give the title to the heir of the Viceroy. If he wants to gratify that dynasty.

Or maybe a Honorary Title? Give it to the Viceroys you like and upon their death their title passes on to their heir?

Maybe. It depends on how much viceroys are moddable. Currently I have no idea whether we have any commands which allow me to check if a title is a viceroy or which might allow me to grant a title as a viceroyalty -- there are no commands listed in the patch notes which would appear to do that.

 

[mrmastro]

I think the best idea would be to add the Themata sub-mod in part but the people without CM should get the mechanics from the submod. Anyhow how the viceroys are working? Are the something like governators for live and then when the governor dies you can appoin some another guy ?

 

[Rylock]

I think the best idea would be to add the Themata sub-mod in part but the people without CM should get the mechanics from the submod. Anyhow how the viceroys are working? Are the something like governators for live and then when the governor dies you can appoin some another guy ?

It really depends on whether people without Charlemagne can still appoint viceroys as the ERE. If not, then yes, I'd likely include the old mechanics involving dukes just for them. The rest of the system will apply regardless.

 

[Athalcor]

Glad to see both that the submod caught your attention and that PI is making the Byzantines more realistic. Even though I am not going to buy CM in the foreseeable future and thus I am totally out of picture when it comes to the newly added mechanisms, I would like to raise some more points about the pre-CM submod:

- the former holders of the Themata should retain their counties and their heirs should be eligible for continuing their dynasty's hold on the territory (because the game can't really simulate the Byzantine aristocracy surviving without actual fiefs and if one simply revoked the title on every succession, the historical Byzantine families would be soon replaced by generic ones)
- the submod also limitedly represented the power of those near the Emperor as the Basileus could choose only from a limited pool of candidates when redistributing the duchies
- I believe that it is now possible to store variables in titles so no need for the decadence being stored in Constantinople...though why change something that is already working?
- also, from my tests it was obvious that instead of accumulating decadence, the succeeding Emperors were able to reverse the trend so adding more options to decrease the ID would be counterproductive...though if you managed to balance the ID system then great