Tinto Maps #23 China Feedback

[Roger Corominas]

Hello and welcome to another week of Tinto Maps Feedback, in which we will take a look at China!

This area has received quite a bit of changes, although the locations themselves have not been touched that much. One change that we still have in the plans to do is to update all location names to use the names of the counties instead of the county seats, as, after the feedback we received, we agree that this is the best way to name locations in China. However, it’s a long list of names that we have to check and change, so it will take a while to do it all. To that effect, we would appreciate any help you can give us by providing lists of the current names of locations and the county name they should use instead. We are aware that there were already many suggestions for name changes in the first Tinto Maps, and we have them already bookmarked, but any further suggestions and feedback will be equally appreciated, and even more if ‘compilations’ of county names by provinces/areas are made.

Now, let’s look at what has changed:

Spoiler: List of changes

ADDITIONS
Added the following:

• Locations
  • Qídōng
  • Dépíng
  • Tángyì
  • Cháochéng
  • Geshitsa
  • Kazhi
  • Gurkyang
• Lakes
  • Hala Nur
  • Jūyán Sea
  • Qīngtǔ Lake
• TAGs
  • Möng Hkeng
  • Möng Hten
  • Möng Ting
  • Möng Ngüm
  • Möng Hsa
  • Möng Wo
  • Möng Ku
  • Yuánjiāng
  • Niuwu
  • Níngyuǎnzhōu
  • Nalou
  • Yánjǐng
  • Běishèng
  • Yáo'ān
  • Hèqìng
  • Ānnán
  • Āníng
  • Mílè
  • Jiànshuǐ
  • Shípíng
  • Níngzhōu
  • Luóluósī
  • Chāngzhōu
  • Xianlong
  • Wǔdìng
  • Réndé
  • Dōngchuān
  • Gyelthang
  • Yongning
  • Tiānquán
  • Muchi
  • Wēimào
  • Tsakho
  • Sōngpān
  • Lóngzhōu
  • Mínzhōu
  • Táozhōu
  • Khagya
  • Hézhōu
  • Jīshízhōu
  • Biri
  • Renamed Chakla to Minyag
  • Removed Ngapa
• Cultures
  • Renamed Dōngběi to Yān
  • Renamed Jiāoliáo to Jiāodōng
  • Renamed Lányín to Liáng
  • Renamed Hak-kâ to Kèjiā
  • Renamed Xīnán to Shǔ
  • Renamed Yuè to Yuèhǎi
  • Renamed Miao to Hmong
  • Renamed Mien to Yáo
  • Added:
    • Liáodōng
    • Huáihǎi
    • Qín
    • Tàizhōu
    • Chǔ
    • Chángdé
    • Yuè
    • Xuānzhōu
    • Wùzhōu
    • Qúzhōu
    • Chúzhōu
    • Jiāngshān
    • Táizhōu
    • Ōuhǎi
    • Túnxī
    • Jìxī
    • Qíwù
    • Xīnxiāng
    • Lǎoxiāng
    • Xiāngxī
    • Yǒngzhōu
    • Héngzhōu
    • Wǎxiāng
    • Huìzhōu
    • Dōngjiāng
    • Fúzhōu
    • Fúníng
    • Mánjiǎng
    • Xīnghuà
    • Mǐnnán
    • Cháozhōu
    • Fúlǎo
    • Léizhōu
    • Qióng
    • Cūnhuà
    • Jiànníng
    • Xīnhuì
    • Málǎo
    • Huàzhōu
    • Gāozhōu
    • Wúchuān
    • Yángjiāng
    • Guǎngxìn
    • Tǔbái
    • Yùlín
    • Dānzhōu
    • Mài
    • Guìběi
    • Guìnán
    • Bo
    • Gyalrong
    • Baima
• Languages
  • Renamed Chinese to Mandarin
  • Added:
    • Chinese language family
    • Classical Chinese
    • Shǔ
    • Xiāng
    • Gàn
    • Píng
    • Yuè
    • Mǐn
    • Wú
    • Huīzhōu
    • Kèjiā
    • Jìn
    • Northern Mandarin dialect
    • Southern Mandarin dialect
    • Qiangic
• Religions:
  • Split Mahāyāna into Eastern Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, and Sānjiào
• Dynamic names
  • Added dynamic character names for all Chinese languages

CORRECTIONS
Locations

• Reworked some wastelands
• Adjusted some location shapes
• Adjusted the Chinese coast according to feedback

Raw goods

• Changed several Raw Goods as suggested

Terrain and Vegetation

• Total Review

Minorities

• Adjusted minorities with the newly added cultures

Countries:

Quite a lot more to see here compared to the previous iteration. As you can see, we have added the Tusi states, which is a new type of subject, in the border towards Yunnan.​

Spoiler: Zoom for the smaller ones

Dynasties:

​

Societies of Pops:

​

Country ranks and Government Types:

​

Locations

As I said, not much substantial changes here, but some small touches here and there.​

Spoiler: A closer look

​

Provinces:

Spoiler: Slight closer

Areas:

​

Terrain:

​

Development:

There are some pending adjustments towards making the division between the ‘core’ China region and the northern provinces less steep; we’re holding them a bit, until we complete the final regional division divide (which will be soon).
​

Harbors:

​

Cultures:

China had quite a bit of cultures before the review, now it has quite a bit more, also with plenty of minorities…

​

Languages

Location languages

Location dialects

Country languages (the Mongolian name is not visible in main China due to it being spread all over up to the Golden Horde)

Court Languages. Mandarin is also the court language of all direct vassals of Yuán, while those using other languages are vassals of vassals.

Liturgical Languages. Yuán starts following Tibetan Buddhism, so it uses Tibetan Language, but Eastern Buddhism as well as Sānjiào are set to use Classical Chinese.​

Religion:

Raw Materials:

Spoiler: A closer look

Markets:

​

And that’s all for today! Remember that we have more China-related content planned for the rest of the week:

• Wednesday -> Tinto Talks about the mechanics for the Middle Kingdom, the Chinese Empire IO!
• Friday -> Tinto Flavour about China

And always as a reminder: Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!

 

[Roger Corominas]

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Absolutely beautifully done Tusi in the West/South-West. Although I would add that this should be Liang:

View attachment 1336883

View attachment 1336884

The Tusi outlined in Green are vassals of Liang:

View attachment 1336889

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General overview of the entirety of Yuan and it's vassals (may update it later in the Manchuria region especially):

Full information on the countries, including rulers, heirs, titles, etc: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...h-of-october-2024-china.1709509/post-30398160

View attachment 1336886
Borders with the old locations:
View attachment 1336888

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We decided to keep the Liang principality as directly owned by Yuan, as the title was mainly a nominal one and the Tusi setup was already complicated enough, but it is something that we may take another look at.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Is there any evidence of this actually being the case? Assuming court language means the language of day-to-day administration, the tusi were deliberately appointed as mostly independent vassals due to their role in administration over native populations

Yes, it's precisely their role in administrating the native populations in the name of the Chinese emperor that we are representing with them adopting the emperor's court language.

 

[Roger Corominas]

This is one of the top posts on the last review. Could these not be checked before scheduling a feedback post? I'm sure you could have/will fix this in under a minute, but it feels bad to see that easy stuff like this remains unaddressed:View attachment 1336892

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuoquan_County

I already mentioned in the post that the pass of changing location names has not yet been done.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Very sad that you chose to keep goose shit green as the colour of the biggest country on Earth at start. It deserves a beautiful colour (plus it's still to similar to Delhi's and Khmer's colour and it's not immediately obvious at first glance who their numerous vassals belong to)

Oh no, the color is not final, we still want to change it to white. There's still some tweaking that needs to be done first on how white colors show on the map.

 

[Roger Corominas]

That's my point, though. Could they not be changed before these are scheduled, rather than always having these disclaimers? You decide when to post the feedback post, so why not decide to post them after you're done implementing the feedback you plan to implement?

What if we want to see the names you changed these locations to, so we can give a second round of feedback - isn't that the purpose of this second post?

We would have loved to implement all the changes before presenting the feedback post, of course. Unfortunately, that is not always possible, as there are many things influencing the schedule of the posts and it's not just a simple thing of waiting for all to be done. In this case, as I said, the changing of all the location names was something that will take quite a bit of time, so other tasks were prioritized to be done before this feedback post. We will get to the locations names in due time.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Location dialects = "Mongolian" seems odd. Does that mean, the majority speaks Mongolian - even in southern China?

These small labels in italics refer to the picture on top of them, not to the one below.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Why not first change the colour to white, and then tweak the map shaders to make it look good?

Because if we don't do the changes so that it looks good first, it would result in it looking bad, and we do not want that. Keep in mind that there's people actively testing the game, we do not want to cause issues for them either.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Can you please change the map colour to the Bimoist religion to something else like the same orange of the Yi culture and language, since right now it's very similar to Sanjiao and it seems to be their native religion

Changed it to use the same color as Yi.

 

[Roger Corominas]

View attachment 1336941
Is this a rename for Cold Arid?

Yes, it was renamed with the aim to avoid potential confusions, but we are aware that it is not the scientifically accurate naming.

 

[Roger Corominas]

I actually think that’s a good idea, and I think I even suggested this once, though it seems to be missing a hyphen (Semi-Arid).

Now, this climate could potentially also be used to represent hot semi-arid climates that so far have not been represented in the game. Have you considered doing that?

View attachment 1336967

It will now be called semi arid, but it will still represent Cold Arid (that is both BWk and BSk climates). Hot semi arid (BSh) will still be inside the normal Arid climate (which will represent Hot Arid, including BWh and BSh)