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Sharur

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During the course of my game, for the first time (this may have something to do w/ the fact that I just downloaded the 1.09 patch and so now have VPs on), I was awarded a couple of titles. First, I was told I'd been promoted to viscount, and then to count. What, if anything, does this mean or do?
 
Correct. Every 100 points up to 600, your title changes. Count, Marquis, and Duke are the only three I can remember offhand. And if you go negative (DoW somebody on jan 1 1492 and this will happen) you get demoted to Baronet.
 
Originally posted by Heyesey
Correct. Every 100 points up to 600, your title changes. Count, Marquis, and Duke are the only three I can remember offhand. And if you go negative (DoW somebody on jan 1 1492 and this will happen) you get demoted to Baronet.
I think there is another one: Regent. Which happens quite quickly(1000 points?) and after that you naturally wont get promoted further.
 
the only title i care about is Baronet, its such a shame, the swedish name sounds even more shamefull. so i marry away a few of my doughters then DoW so i dont get there:D
 
Originally posted by Lars
the only title i care about is Baronet, its such a shame, the swedish name sounds even more shamefull. so i marry away a few of my doughters then DoW so i dont get there:D

I always thought Baronet was an invention of the English kings to reward people who gave them a lot of money when they were looking to finance a war. Other countries have the same title?
 
Originally posted by rhony2


I always thought Baronet was an invention of the English kings to reward people who gave them a lot of money when they were looking to finance a war. Other countries have the same title?

Baronet is the lowest-ranking English hereditary title. (I don't know when or why it was invented.)
Viscount is next on the list, then Earl, then Marquess, and top of the tree is a Duke. Nothing beats a Duke except royalty. (Some Dukes are royalty, but then it gets complicated.) The reason most of these titles have a French feel is because they were brought in by the Normans.

The system has evolved somewhat haphazardly over the last 950 years, so don't expect it to make any sense :D
 
I know we have Barons, Counts and Dukes in Sweden (at least had :p), not sure about the others though. Any other swedes around that could give a run down of the swedish nobility?
 
We don't have Counts in the UK, because in Old English it already meant something unfortunate (drop the 'o'). The Normans switched to Earl (from the Norse Jarl). You are still a countess if you are married to an Earl.
 
Can the queen still 'knight' people in the UK so that their title is heriditary? Swedish king lost the ability to 'knight' people in 1975..
 
Originally posted by Johan IV
Can the queen still 'knight' people in the UK so that their title is heriditary? Swedish king lost the ability to 'knight' people in 1975..

AFAIK, knighthood never has been hereditary in the UK. It definitely is not now.

The Queen retains power to bestow knighthoods, along with all the titles mentioned above, and also various honours military and civilian (MBE/OBE being the two most common civilian ones.) Usually, she does so only on the advice of government departments, however she chooses her own titles to grant to other members of her family (eg. creating Prince Andrew the Duke of York on his marriage.)
 
Heyesey said:
Baronet is the lowest-ranking English hereditary title. (I don't know when or why it was invented.) Viscount is next on the list, then Earl, then Marquess, and top of the tree is a Duke. Nothing beats a Duke except royalty. (Some Dukes are royalty, but then it gets complicated.)

Actually, you missed a rank, baron goes between baronet and viscount. Here's a quote on the history of baronetcies from a site: Baronetcy is a hereditary order of knighthood, founded in 1611 by James I to provide funds for the settlement of Ireland. The original intention was to not exceed 200, but soon there were lavish creations, mainly to raise money, in the Stuart period. An order of Irish and Scottish baronets was subsequently established. They merged in 1707 into baronets of Great Britain, and in 1801 into baronets of the United Kingdom.

And baronets were below the peerage (though still hereditary) which is probably why the game demotes you to that level if you do poorly.

For more information on titles and peerage, see:

http://aj.encyclopedia.com/printablenew/12912.html and
http://members.tripod.com/~mr_sedivy/engrise19.html

Frank
 
Originally posted by Johan IV
I know we have Barons, Counts and Dukes in Sweden (at least had :p), not sure about the others though. Any other swedes around that could give a run down of the swedish nobility?

I'll write this in Swedish since it's about Swedish titles. Baron är inte en adlig 'grad', utan hur man tilltalar någon med titeln friherre. Friherre är i sin tur under greve och hertig, som du skrev. Har ingen aning om hur det funkar i övrigt, men min polare som är friherre brukar i fyllan och villan upplysa oss vanliga dödliga om hur det förhåller sig:)
 
Originally posted by FrankJ
Heyesey said:


Actually, you missed a rank, baron goes between baronet and viscount. Here's a quote on the history of baronetcies from a site: Baronetcy is a hereditary order of knighthood, founded in 1611 by James I to provide funds for the settlement of Ireland. The original intention was to not exceed 200, but soon there were lavish creations, mainly to raise money, in the Stuart period. An order of Irish and Scottish baronets was subsequently established. They merged in 1707 into baronets of Great Britain, and in 1801 into baronets of the United Kingdom.

And baronets were below the peerage (though still hereditary) which is probably why the game demotes you to that level if you do poorly.


Frank

According to my dictionary, Baron is not an hereditary rank. Quote:

baron: a member of the lowest order of British nobility.
baronet: a member of the lowest hereditary titled British order.

I conclude that, although barons do rank above baronets, they do not pass on their titles to their heirs. (I may be wrong - if so, I blame the dictionary :D )
 
In British usage 'baron' is usually a generic term for a titled landowner (eg The Barons' War).

However, I recall references to a Baron Rothschild, who was I think British, but perhaps had a continental title.

A Baronet is generally referred to as "Sir John Smith, Bt" to show that he is not a mere non-hereditary knight. His wife, though, might be addressed as a Baroness (eg Thatcher), but perhaps this is only if the wife is, in fact, the intended beneficiary of the title.

The Thatchers are the only non-royal hereditary award I can recall from recent years.
 
Originally posted by Sir James
In British usage 'baron' is usually a generic term for a titled landowner (eg The Barons' War).

However, I recall references to a Baron Rothschild, who was I think British, but perhaps had a continental title.

A Baronet is generally referred to as "Sir John Smith, Bt" to show that he is not a mere non-hereditary knight. His wife, though, might be addressed as a Baroness (eg Thatcher), but perhaps this is only if the wife is, in fact, the intended beneficiary of the title.

The Thatchers are the only non-royal hereditary award I can recall from recent years.

Well, it's been a while since I last looked at a copy of Burke's peerage, but unless they have changed it, Baronets were hereditary knights, and as FrankJ originally posted, created by James I to fund the settlement of Ireland. I remember that there were supposed to be 3 groups and FrankJ has confirmed that. I didn't know they had been merged in 1707. I do remember that their heraldic symbol was a an open, white-gloved palm. Their wives can take the title of Lady, but not in their own name
This is similar to other English titles. I learned some of this from Dorothy Sayers, so I will use the fictional Wimsey family as an example. THe Duke of Denver is (or more appropriately since they had either already or will soon kick out most hereditary peers from the House of Lords) was a peer and member of the House of Lords. He has a secondary title, the Viscount Saint-Charles, which can be and is customarily used as a courtesy title by his eldest son and heir. Although his first son's courtesy title is that of a Viscount, which is technically 3 ranks lower than that of a Duke, according to Burke's peerage, his order of precedence places him one rank below his father (equivalent to a Marquess/Marchioness). Other sons and daughters would have precedence equivalent to 2 ranks below (an Earl/Countess). These other sons and daughters have the right to preface the title Lord/Lady before their FIRST NAME. Therefore, a 2nd son, Peter, would be called Lord Peter, but not Lord Wimsey. Lord Peter's wife, Harriet, born a commoner, would be addresses as Lady Peter, NOT Lady Harriet.
Anyway, for titled Nobility (and baronets are considered knights, not nobles), the rank from lowest to highest, according to Burkes's peerage, is:

Baron/Baroness
Viscount/Viscountess
Earl/Countess
Marquess/Marchioness
Duke/Duchess

The Lords of the Church have their place in this precedence as well, with Bishops falling between Barons and Viscounts and Archbishops falling between Marquess and Duke.
There are specific modes of address (Dukes and Archbishops are addressed as "your grace" as opposed to "my lord" or "your lordship"), as well as varying modes of written address (Right Honorable, Most Noble, etc.).
Only Prince Charles, when he became the Prince of Wales is a true prince in the sense that he has a real title of rank of prince. His brothers' prince titles are courtesy only, and their "real" titles of Duke of York and I forget what Andrew's was, were conferred when they reach adulthood.
In terms of life-peers (non hereditary nobles and members of the House of Lords), there are a LOT of them - they may even outnumber the hereditary ones. Traditionally, a retiring Prime Minister is given a life peerage, so Margaret Thatcher receving a baroness title was in accordance with practice, although I always thought retiring PM's were made Viscounts. But other commoners who have a long history of service to England are also given life peerages, and they come from all walks of life, not just politics.
Of course, this is for the UK only and other countries have their own systems, which can get quite complicated.
 
Originally posted by Heyesey

I conclude that, although barons do rank above baronets, they do not pass on their titles to their heirs. (I may be wrong - if so, I blame the dictionary :D )


I am, and I do :D

Lowest ranked title: Knight
Lowest ranked hereditary title: Baronet, which is an hereditary knight, NOT nobility
Lowest ranked nobility: Baron, then Viscount, Earl, Marquess, Duke and Prince (all of which are hereditary)


I told you it was gonna be confusing :D