Toluid Khanate

[MattyG]

While we have been rethinking Asia, much of this has focused on the China, Korea, Jurcehn, japan etc. I'd like to have a little discussion about the Mongols, which in Interregnum is the Toluid Khanate.

In general, the Mongols have been one of Interregnum's losers. The timing of their big push and the significance of having it fail or succeed in different places has been crucial to some of Interregnum's storylines. One of the biggest rollbacks has been in China, which they do not conquer and where no Yuan dynasty comes to power.

China instead (and Asia generally) will be a far more advanced region, with some countries even gaining the Latin tech group. Unlike Europe, there is no major religious conflict in the region like there is between Islam and Christianity, and there is not schismatic process like the reformation. These things not only make Europe a fun venue, but a challenging one as well for players.


Accordingly, I'd like us to consider a second coming for the Mongols. The timing of such a resurgence would need to be sometime after about 1450, if only because we don't want to have this much fun over and done with too early, and because we want to give a chance for the Toluids to collapse before that, for variety's sake.

The Mongol Resurgence could feature the following:

1. One or two great leaders (a 6/4/6 and a 4/4/5/2 ) the former of which has risen to be Khan by sheer force.

2. A Berthier-style logistician/administrator which enables the whole thing to function.

3. Events for the ai-only to give it extra troops and cash to run the whole project.

4. Events for nations to buy their way out of trouble against the Mongols.

5. The Mongols have two main strategic choices. he first to unify China and establish a Dynasty, the second to head west to reuinite the scattered hordes there.

Thoughts?

 

[Don_Quigleone]

I like, it might also be a good idea for them to head into siberia, Also they should perhaps gather together the "lost sheep" of Il-khanate, golden horde etc.

I think they should probably stick to the old mongolian way of not being religious, maybe they should be something like buddhist (just for gameplay) but be innovative and they could get religious upheaval events turned off for them, Diff religion penalties can still be explained though (non religious countries weren't exactly loved at the time...)

 

[MattyG]

I like, it might also be a good idea for them to head into siberia, Also they should perhaps gather together the "lost sheep" of Il-khanate, golden horde etc.

This is what I meant by heading west. I think the ai would always do this once they conquer China or we can have them do it first 25%-ish of the time. Once through they demand obeisance from the Horde and the (remains of) the Il-Khanate, beating up whomever refuses.

I think they should probably stick to the old mongolian way of not being religious, maybe they should be something like buddhist (just for gameplay) but be innovative and they could get religious upheaval events turned off for them, Diff religion penalties can still be explained though (non religious countries weren't exactly loved at the time...)

Well, they begin the game as nestorians. I think the best thing here is then that this periof of the Khanate begins with a succession crisis/coup at the death of a khan, and the amazing general who takes over is nominally bhuddist but feels that the nestorian monarchs were weak and had sold away the Mongol legacy and heritage.

So, yeah, initially, this would be the case. But later I think religion should be the killer for them. Instead of the Mongols dividing over succession, they divide over religion, as once HE dies those of faith reassert themselves in various parts of the empire and it largely collapses.

 

[siafu]

As we have it set up so far, the Toluids are going to have their hands full at least for the first 50 years or so just keeping alive. In particular, the Ming are going to be gunning for the northern provinces with Han culture, and will be strongly land-based and high quality, at least at the start of the game. The likely result should be the Toluids being pushed west towards the Chagataids.

Historically, Ariq Boke, our non-historical founder of the Toluid Khanate, was supported in his war against Khubilai by the traditionalist elements of Mongol society, and most particularly the Chagataids. What we might consider, then, would be some sort of reconciliation between the Toluids and the Chagataids and possibly even the "Genghids" that form from the collapse of the Il-Khanate (though I think the name "Genghid" might not be the best as the rulers of all four Khanates were "Genghisids" themselves). Additionally, the lineages that founded the Golden Horde (descendants of Genghis Khan's eldest son, Jochi) and the Il-Khanate (descendants of Hulegu, brother of Ariq Boke and Khubilai, but ally only of Khubilai) would not be as friendly to the Chagataids/Toluids as they would be to each other. This is particularly true of the Golden Horde, as there existed something of a feud between the descendants of Jochi and the descendants of Chagatai that went all the way back to the two brothers themselves.

So, suppose the Toluids are pushed back, but not too far (i.e., there could be events wherein they lose their eastern capital and move west), and merge with the Chagataids to form a new Khanate. My suggestion would be to take advantage of one of the princely families, for example the descendants of Jochi Khasar, Genghis Khan's older brother, who were minor rulers in the west of China who were involved in a rebellion against the Yuan (i.e. they were no friends of Khubilai either, which would make them popular with the Toluids and Chagataids) and later managed to join up with the Manchu and hold high offices in the Qing dynasty. So, suppose Bolunai steps up and challenges the Toluid Khan after this series of defeats, and takes over the throne, creating a Khasarid Khanate. His first goal would be to do something about the Chagataids, possibly marrying into the family, and setting his youngest son by his new wife (in true Mongol fashion) as the new Khan of both Khanates.

The result would be a much stronger state than either were, even at the start of the game, and an infusion of fresh blood into the ruling class, from which we could have plenty of dynamic and effective leaders.

It's also notable that the places and cases where Mongol power thrived and lasted most effectively were those in which they were least assimilated into the local culture-- the sinicized Yuan Empire and the Muslim Il-Khanate both collapsed relatively quickly, but the "Tartar Yoke" in Russia and the Chagataid Khanate both lasted much longer (even Timur rose to power under the auspices of Chagataid legitimacy), so this region being a possible source of a Mongol resurgence seems especially appropriate.

 

[siafu]

Also-- Khubilai himself had Buddhist leanings, so if we want the Mongol identity to be as we've set it up, that is with the first principles of Ariq Boke's faction, then it would be relatively unlikely that any of them would want to convert to Buddhism. It would be seen as a religion of the settled, agrarian peoples and therefore "weak".

 

[Shogun 144]

Also-- Khubilai himself had Buddhist leanings, so if we want the Mongol identity to be as we've set it up, that is with the first principles of Ariq Boke's faction, then it would be relatively unlikely that any of them would want to convert to Buddhism. It would be seen as a religion of the settled, agrarian peoples and therefore "weak".

Is this why the Toluids are Nestorian Christian? Historically Ariq Boke was quite the Christian sympathizier, and had no love for Buddhism, or anything that could be seen as Chinese. Ariq Boke felt that his brother was growing soft from his 'obession'. So he set himself against Khubilai's increasing attempts to mold the Mongols into a Chinese style power. In this he was backed by the majority of the Mongol nobility, but most importantly a majority of the Borjigids (the clan of Chinggis) supported him. His victory in the war with Khubilai is a very believable what-if.

As one last note it has been recently put foward that Ariq Boke, while a traditionalist, could have been a closet Christian. Which is very plausible, given the popularity of Nestorian Christianity with the Mongols, and East Asia on a whole.

 

[MattyG]

Is this why the Toluids are Nestorian Christian? Historically Ariq Boke was quite the Christian sympathizier, and had no love for Buddhism, or anything that could be seen as Chinese. Ariq Boke felt that his brother was growing soft from his 'obession'. So he set himself against Khubilai's increasing attempts to mold the Mongols into a Chinese style power. In this he was backed by the majority of the Mongol nobility, but most importantly a majority of the Borjigids (the clan of Chinggis) supported him. His victory in the war with Khubilai is a very believable what-if.

As one last note it has been recently put foward that Ariq Boke, while a traditionalist, could have been a closet Christian. Which is very plausible, given the popularity of Nestorian Christianity with the Mongols, and East Asia on a whole.

Yes, this was the reasoning. From among the possible outcomes, that one was selected, in part to give the region more religious difference and in part because it is 'cool'.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

in part because it is 'cool'.

Best reason EVER

 

[siafu]

His victory in the war with Khubilai is a very believable what-if.

That's good news, but what about the rest of the stuff proposed for the Toluids? Is it too far afield?

 

[Shogun 144]

That's good news, but what about the rest of the stuff proposed for the Toluids? Is it too far afield?

Actually it is all pretty good. Just one small correction: The Khasarids backed Khubilai during the war with Ariq Boke. They rose in revolt later, but were forgiven by Khubilai by virtue of being descended from a brother of Chinggis. The great grandson of Khubilai, Emperor Wuzong, rewarded them for their service in 1307 with the title of Prince of Qi. Now it is entirely possible that Ariq Boke could have forgiven the Khasarids, like Khubilai IRL, and allowed them to hold high positions in his court. Just thought you'd like to know.

One last thing: Do you have any plans to use Esen Tayisi? Esen was a prince of the Oirats and was one of the greatest of the non Borjigid leaders of the Mongols. He fell from power when he attempted to claim the title of Qan (Great Khan), which was open only to Borjigids.

 

[siafu]

I hadn't planned on it, and I didn't know that the Khasarids were on Khubilai's side in the war. Esen Tayisi managed to unify Mongolia under the Oirats IRL, but since they weren't fractured by the collapse of Yuan in Interregnum, a different opportunity would be necessary for him.

Since we in fact have a surviving Khanate with a Genghisid royal family, perhaps Esen could work like Timur and put a puppet in the position of khan. Alternately, an Ogodeid, particularly a descendant of Kaidu, would make sense. I was mostly rooting for the Khasarids because Khabutu Khasar doesn't get much of a place in the sun thanks to his brother (Temujin) and their falling out.

EDIT: To clarify, I found this great passage in R.P. Lister's Genghis Khan:

"Who is that other chieftain?" Tayang asked Jamuqa, "who draws ever nearer us, in a dense crowd of men?"

[Jamuqa replied,] "Mother Hoelun brought up one of her sons on human flesh. He is nine feet tall; he eats a three-year-old cow every day. If he swallows an armed man whole, it makes no difference to his appetite. When he is roused to anger, and lets fly with one of his angqu'a arrows, it will go through ten or twenty men. His normal range is a thousand yards; when he draws his bow to its fullest extent, he shoots over eighteen hundred yards. He is mortal, but he is not like other mortals; he is more than a match for the serpents of Guralgu. He is called Jöchi Khasar."

 

[Shogun 144]

That seems pretty interesting Siafu, I like it. Esen did have all of the makings of a Timur style figure. One thing though, his family wouldn't last for very long after his death. Perhaps a perhaps a power struggle between what remains of the Toluids and the Ogedeids? I don't know.

I like the suggestion of a puppet Ogedeid Qan being a descendant of Qaidu, since he and Khubilai didn't get along. Qaidu waged war on the Yuan for 30 years, though I don't know his position towards Ariq Boke. Though in this TL they would become allies more likely then not, combining their impressive might. And it is still possible for the Khasarids to a play a part, though in what role is the question.

 

[siafu]

Well, two figures, Bolunai and Unebalad, were prominent Khasarids in the 15th century. Suppose a strong leader, like Esen Tayisi, mounts a rebellion against the faltering Toluid Khanate (faltering in this sense meaning losing, say, Hebei 649, Shanxi 1562, Ningxia 1560, and maybe also Hohhot 1561). He succeeds in overthrowing the Toluid Khan, but not being a Genghisid himself he proclaims for ZZZZ AAAA (I'm not sure I can generate plausible Mongol names) in a khuriltai, and the puppet Ogedeid remains under his firm (ish) control.

The first thing they do, or have the option of doing, is either invading the Chagataids, making firmer and closer ties with them, or doing nothing (third and most unlikely option) and turning on Nanzhao and Ming. In invading, the Khanate gets two leaders, the above-mentioned Khasarid brothers, with good stats (4/3/4, 3/4/3, e.g.), enough to give them the edge to possibly succeed against the Chagataids.

Naturally, the use of powerful "sub"-khans could lead to problems down the line, as it did in all the other Mongol states with different families vying for control. Add to this the natural instability involved in puppet rule, and we could have a chain of events that leads to a strong injection of strength initially followed by a period of decay some 30-50 years later. This would be enough to challenge their neighbors (particularly the ulus Chagatai, Nanzhao, Ming, and possibly Song and the Jurchen/Korea) which is what MattyG seemed to be looking for, while at the same time not completely dominating everything or getting too far from plausible as the idea of a traditionalist Mongol state modernizing into the later centuries is rather unlikely.

How does that sound?

 

[Shogun 144]

Sounds good so far Siafu. So here we have a line of events that in case the Toluids begin to falter Esen Tayisi seizes control. Now since he has more sense in our TL then in RL he finds a plausible puppet from among the Ogedeids, since their ancestor in Toluid lands, Qaidu, is a popular figure. Okay so I can name our Ogedeid puppet? I forward Mongke Kulug. Moving on....

Okay so anyway Esen Tayisi gains control through his puppet and goes on the rampage. In the process he gains the services of the Khasarid brothers, who turn out to be a real boon. This results in them over-running the Chagadaid Khanate, attacking Nanzhao, and raiding into Ming territory. Now my suggestion is that this should result in basically the Mongols getting piled on by the Chinese and the Jurchen (and thier Korean friends), who are gonna best remember the last time the Mongols came to visit. This should result in Esen Tayisi pulling back and just generally attacking wherever his horses take him in the other directions. Maybe the Mongols could conquer Nanzhao, or is that too ambitious?

Another suggestion I have is that Mongke Kulug isn't gonna to be a 'quiet' puppet. Even powerless as Qan he still carries alot of weight, perhaps a civil war to get rid of Esen Tayisi is in order? The Khasarid brothers should play a part here. I have no more suggestions besides those.

Very good ideas all in all Siafu, please keep it up!

 

[siafu]

Sounds good so far Siafu. So here we have a line of events that in case the Toluids begin to falter Esen Tayisi seizes control.

Now we say "in case" just to be careful, but I want to point out that even without any events, Ming invariably seems to grab those three Han provinces just to the north of its border. Every time.

Now since he has more sense in our TL then in RL he finds a plausible puppet from among the Ogedeids, since their ancestor in Toluid lands, Qaidu, is a popular figure. Okay so I can name our Ogedeid puppet? I forward Mongke Kulug. Moving on....

Seconded. Moving on...

Okay so anyway Esen Tayisi gains control through his puppet and goes on the rampage. In the process he gains the services of the Khasarid brothers, who turn out to be a real boon. This results in them over-running the Chagadaid Khanate, attacking Nanzhao, and raiding into Ming territory. Now my suggestion is that this should result in basically the Mongols getting piled on by the Chinese and the Jurchen (and thier Korean friends), who are gonna best remember the last time the Mongols came to visit. This should result in Esen Tayisi pulling back and just generally attacking wherever his horses take him in the other directions. Maybe the Mongols could conquer Nanzhao, or is that too ambitious?

I was thinking that the Khasarids would be Esen's lieutenants in his rebellion, and their post-rebellion positions are a result of the loyalty they showed him earlier. In game terms, this is naturally the same, but it changes how we write it and the story consequences.

As for Nanzhao, we can have certainly have those two go to war, but conquering anything is up to the game being played. Nanzhao could, in theory, be in a strong position if Champa does well and Lau Keung's Shun (Hui) dynasty emerges. In that case, the new khanate could just as well lose (which is okay).

As for the Chinese and Korea piling on the Mongols, perhaps an event series for a war alliance with the specific goal of driving out the barbarians once and for all? This creates some interesting possibilities for diplomatic events for the three countries involved (Ming, Korea, Jurchen).

Another suggestion I have is that Mongke Kulug isn't gonna to be a 'quiet' puppet. Even powerless as Qan he still carries alot of weight, perhaps a civil war to get rid of Esen Tayisi is in order? The Khasarid brothers should play a part here. I have no more suggestions besides those.

I heartily agree that just about any governmental system instituted on a traditional Mongol model would lead to just these sorts of issues. Timur's reign, for example, was dominated by uprisings, and he spent almost his entire career riding back and forth putting them down. I think especially if Mongke Kulug (or his son) is not a simpleton, he would have an easy time of drawing on Borjigid loyalty. As for the Khasarids, I see an event or two wherein the player or AI (as Esen Tayisi) is given the option of securing their loyalty somehow, at great cost, or losing them and being put at a serious disadvantage in a second civil war.

 

[Shogun 144]

Siafu,

Okay that all sounds very good, thanks for your comments and suggestions. Especially on the issue of Esen Tayisi and the Khasarids, and their role in this AL we are creating. Sometimes I get confused. BTW I am really excited about the new Wei material. Cool stuff.

Now more ideas. What I envisioned is that a series of events that leads to Esen Tayisi taking over the Toluid Khanate with the backing of the Khasarids and their power block in Qurultai. Esen then embarks on a series of conquests, so that his opponents will not able to gather strength against him. So the first target should be the Chagadai Khanate. Now basically what I have in mind is that the Toluids should hit the Chagadaids, then Nanzhao, and lastly raid into China proper. This should be event driven, but your call. The most likely target would be the Ming. So the Mongols take a Chinese province. This triggers alarms across the Chinese dynasties and the Jurchen/Goryeo. They all form an alliance to defeat the Mongols once and for all. This has to be my favorite part. The alliance would be plauged by distrust and intrique as they allies bicker over everything. The Mongols should normally lose here and get thrown back into Mongolia. Mongke Kulug, who hasn't been the easiest of puppets to control, siezes the moment and denounces Esen Tayisi as a traitor. Civil War time. Both sides scramble for allies. The Khasarids demand land, title, and power, from Esen Tayisi and threaten to defect to Mongke Kulug's loyalists. If they defect the loyalists are almost assured victory. I'll let you take the lead from there.

How about that?

 

[siafu]

Okay that all sounds very good, thanks for your comments and suggestions. Especially on the issue of Esen Tayisi and the Khasarids, and their role in this AL we are creating. Sometimes I get confused.

Just because no one's ever bothered to tell me, what do "AL" and "TL" stand for, specifically?

Now more ideas. What I envisioned is that a series of events that leads to Esen Tayisi taking over the Toluid Khanate with the backing of the Khasarids and their power block in Qurultai. Esen then embarks on a series of conquests, so that his opponents will not able to gather strength against him. So the first target should be the Chagadai Khanate. Now basically what I have in mind is that the Toluids should hit the Chagadaids, then Nanzhao, and lastly raid into China proper. This should be event driven, but your call. The most likely target would be the Ming. So the Mongols take a Chinese province. This triggers alarms across the Chinese dynasties and the Jurchen/Goryeo. They all form an alliance to defeat the Mongols once and for all. This has to be my favorite part. The alliance would be plauged by distrust and intrique as they allies bicker over everything. The Mongols should normally lose here and get thrown back into Mongolia. Mongke Kulug, who hasn't been the easiest of puppets to control, siezes the moment and denounces Esen Tayisi as a traitor. Civil War time. Both sides scramble for allies. The Khasarids demand land, title, and power, from Esen Tayisi and threaten to defect to Mongke Kulug's loyalists. If they defect the loyalists are almost assured victory. I'll let you take the lead from there.

How about that?

Esen Tayisi was killed in real life in 1454, so lets say that these events take place in the 1460s (seriously, every time I play, the AI Ming takes those three provinces almost immediately so we don't need to worry about that part triggering). The truce between Ming and Korea should be especially tenuous at this point, as Ming is going to be very militaristic (and narrow-minded, which will hurt them later).

So, we can suppose an alliance of Ming, Korea, the Jurchen, and possibly Wei-- Song at this point is still riddled with civil war; we should make them entering the fray an option B, so it can happen occasionally. I imagine that the principle target would be Lanzhou, the "gold province", so Ming gets a core on that or Xining depending on whether or not the Mongols take Lanzhou from Nanzhao, and Korea or Jurchen go for Hohhot (i.e. core granted), and the dust settles with a fortification effort on the western frontiers.

So, then there's the Mongol civil war and either a loyalist victory and the Ogodeid khans wrest control from Esen and continue ruling in the traditional fashion, or Esen and the Khasarids win. Someone previously suggested that they could convert from Nestorianism, which could be a possibility, but I think they'd be more likely to go Muslim (particularly if the loyalists LOSE) than Buddhist.

Either way, it would be obvious to any sensible Mongol leader that attacking China is just the sort of impetus that could lead to unification, which they definitely do not want. So, after the war, the focus would turn westward on the Il-Khanate (or Genghid Khanate if it fell apart) as well as the Uzbeks and the Caliphate.

How about that?

 

[Shogun 144]

It looks all good there Siafu, I approve. As for your questions "TL" stands for TimeLine, and is used to refer to the flow of time. "IRL" stands for InRealLife and refers to Real Life. "AL" means AlternateLine, which is used by some instead of the more common "OTL" (OurTimeLine) or "AH" (AlternateHistory) and "ATL" (AlternateTimeLine). Sorry for confusing you.

 

[siafu]

"IRL" stands for InRealLife and refers to Real Life.

Now, now, having been using the internet since some contributors were in diapers, I do know that one. ;p