Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Treaty of Tordeblahblah

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
grumbler

grumbler

Captain
Mar 5, 2001
410
0
Visit site
(sorry I cannot rememeber the name exactly)

This treaty, as I understand it, allows me (as Spain in a just-for grins colonial-dominated game) to attack all colonies in the New World at whim with the blessings of the Pope (i.e. without declaring war on the home country of the colony). Supposedly, all the provinces I know about in the New World are marked with little shields for Spain.

In my current game, this has been true for all territories that I first discovered. However, along the Atlantic seaboard of North America, there are mixed Spanish and English colonies. I cannot attack any of the English colonies - the message 'that area is a colony of England' appears). England is still catholic, so I know they are aware of the Pope's diktat! :) Spanish she=ields do not appear on the map in areas the English are in, nor are they in some of the North American areas where no one has a colony (although they do show up in some areas of North America where I first explored).

Is there an element I am missing here? Is there anything I can do to trash the interloper without a war on England? My sovereign wants 'no English in North America' and I hate to disappoint him!
 
Hi Sean & BiB,
Please could you enlighthen me further in greater detail?- When this event occoured, I really was left wondering what exactly it meant; As it didn't seem to help.
For instance, I was allied with France and England ( to stop them fightng) playing as Spain as you probably guessed!!, but could attack no provinces with a TP, let alone a colonial city- This was both the West and East coast of the modern US.
Toby
 
Originally posted by Toby Rowe
Hi Sean & BiB,
Please could you enlighthen me further in greater detail?- When this event occoured, I really was left wondering what exactly it meant; As it didn't seem to help.
For instance, I was allied with France and England ( to stop them fightng) playing as Spain as you probably guessed!!, but could attack no provinces with a TP, let alone a colonial city- This was both the West and East coast of the modern US.
Toby
Click to expand...

West and East Coast aren't subject to the Treaty. Duno about the West but in the East the Treaty runs to just over Florida. Abive that, the treaty doesn't work.
 
Originally posted by Huszics
Toby, it's covered in full in my FAQ =)
Click to expand...

Actually, Huszics, your FAQ was the first place I went, and the covered provinces aren't mentioned (not even that there are limits).

Does anyone have a list of the covered provinces? I would check it out myself, but my last conquistador just died! :(

What file is it in? I looked though most of them and couldn't find a list (but its gotta be there!)

I took the hit for failing the mission. Serves me right for accepting a mission when I didn't know the terms. :)
 
OK, let me do a cut'n'paste from my FAQ about the Treaty of Tordesillas

'To know exactly which provinces are affected you can see small shields in the colonial view map, depicting either Spanish or Portugese 'ownership'.'

So yes, it's in there as well described as it can possibly be (listing hunderds of provinces isn't an option IMO =)

Or are you asking which provinces belongs to N America ?

In that case you should look at your province.csv, preferably in Excell or similar proggy.
 
Both the manual and your FAQ state that (from your FAQ) . 'It's the pope that divides the New world in a Spanish and a Portuguese influence zone.'

Actually, it appears that the Pope only divides part of the new world between Spain and Portugal. Nothern areas of North America aren't divided between them, but are apparently left out of the equation altogether.

This seems contrary to the actual trety (see http://www.bartleby.com/65/to/Tordesil.html
http://www.britannica.com/seo/t/treaty-of-tordesillas/
and http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/Americas/Tordesillas.html).

I presume this is a gameplay issue to allow the English and French to have their colonies in North America, but since they only established these colonies under risk of attack, i wonder if the game should include ALL of North America under the treaty and let the English and French defend themselves if Spain comes a-knocking.

I have seen Portuguese shields in Africa. Has anyone played Portugal enough to say what provinces in Asia are covered by the Treaty (e.g. is the Phillipines covered by the Treaty)?
 
That is pretty unhistorically... the division was of the WHOLE world... so ALL of north america should be included (altough that due to the cape verde correction some eastern parts of north america should have portuguese shields)...

I dunno but I would consider it a bug... Hartmann, if you read this please put it on the bug list...

Cheers,

Carlos
 
Originally posted by BiB
I bet the game has left out some territories to make the game evolve more historically so the English go to North America and stay there for example.
Click to expand...

I hope not. this would be a sign that the game cannot handle history, then. If it must 'force' historical results, then its claim as a accurate (within its design limitations) simulation fall apart.

Spain did not fail to squash the English colonies in the New World because the treaty did not allow them to, it failed because, by the time the English started to establish colonies, England was too powerful to irritate in this way.

The treaty SHOULD work as follows, if it wanted to be historical:

1. It should cover the entire world outside of Europe

2. It should allow the attacks on any settlement without DoW, regardless of religion.

3. Non-Catholic countries should get a CB against Spain or Port if their settlements are attacked. Catholic nations would not.

4. It should expire as the rule currently reads (with the Edict of Tolerance).

This would simulate the actual treaty, and would make a game decision to establish those early (and ahistorical) English colonies a real gamble.
 
Originally posted by grumbler


I hope not. this would be a sign that the game cannot handle history, then. If it must 'force' historical results, then its claim as a accurate (within its design limitations) simulation fall apart.

Spain did not fail to squash the English colonies in the New World because the treaty did not allow them to, it failed because, by the time the English started to establish colonies, England was too powerful to irritate in this way.

The treaty SHOULD work as follows, if it wanted to be historical:

1. It should cover the entire world outside of Europe

2. It should allow the attacks on any settlement without DoW, regardless of religion.

3. Non-Catholic countries should get a CB against Spain or Port if their settlements are attacked. Catholic nations would not.

4. It should expire as the rule currently reads (with the Edict of Tolerance).

This would simulate the actual treaty, and would make a game decision to establish those early (and ahistorical) English colonies a real gamble.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I think mayby #2 is a bit over the top here. Often people of other religions where even banned by the pope. Why they would follow some rule the pope made, when even Spain & Portugal didn't agree on it, seem a bit far streched.

In fact the ToT was an amendment 1494 to the original declaration by the pope 1493 that wasn't even recognized by the pop himself until 1506. Spain & Portugal where walking on very thin ice here, and they knew it. Also noone actually knew what the world locked like in the first place =)
 
Last edited:
Also the AI isn't very good at handling the treaty. Xure England is able to defend its colonies when it's a player but the AI can't. By default the AI of other nations will not try to colonize in South America anyway (bar the Guyanas and Caribbean Isles.
 
Historically, the ToT should apply to North America. The Spanish in 1565 wiped out a French Huegonout settlement at St. Augustine, Florida.

The legal justifications at the time for the massacre were that 1) they were heretics; and 2) that the settlement was in Spanish territory (ie, as per the ToT).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back