Languages: United German or Split East Slavic (Russian and Ruthenian) in 1337

[ibvfteh]

1. It is called East Slavic in Crusader Kings. And no, it's not appropriate to use it in EU5 because this language became extinct in 14th century

Did a united German language go extinct? It had split in the 5th century. Did a united Scandinavian language go extinct? Old Norse survived until the 13th century if we trust Wikipedia.

Clearly, there is much more to what is portrayed in-game by languages. As all of the portrayed ones are technically extinct!

There was no Scandinavian, no united German. Everywhere were dialects, and some of them were already incredibly old

Then why are they portrayed as united?

Perhaps the language extinction is not a factor for the developers in this case.

I believe in this image only French, Hungarian and English have existed for real.
And then, if we go deeper, the dialects of those languages repeat their names

The language in the game is a much broader term compared to the current understanding. It can be measured with some grouping

 

[Dewit]

I like the current setup and see no need to have it changed.
A lot of people here argued convincingly but you just don’t want to accept that.
Make a mod and play it how you like it.

 

[ryhs]

I don't care much for the classifications as long as it permits cultural assimilation into one nation up to a certain age
You clearly should be able to replicate the historical inclusion of "smolenskian" or "severian" culture into russian as Muscovy, or vice-versa into ukrainian if you are successful as Kiev etc, if you manage to do it early enough
Personally it seems like some event or advance after 1500's would serve this role better if the cultural unification is hardwired to the same language

edit: "this role" as in forbidding it

 

[Cuke]

A lot of people here argued convincingly

Not really. People here tend to slide into narrative arguments while the issue is clearly ludic: one language is disproportionally bigger than the others.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

What if this language will not be called East Slavic? What if it will be called Rus language instead?

Old East Slavic is an archaic one, but it has evolved into a Dialect Continuum of languages. The highlighted area also talks about dialectal zones.

The game can portray this situation just by having 4 dialects within the Rus language. Just like Swedish and Danish are part of the Scandinavian language.
BTW Scandinavian(Old Norse) is also an archaic language at this time (14th century) according to its Wikipedia



But I do see the impact on the game. And I believe that if the Russian Culture Group, which currently includes Ukrainian cultures, is significantly reduced, and a Ruthenian Culture Group will be created, then the united language can exist.
This will provide an independence of the regions, forged by their unique historical paths, but will also retain the linguistic bond
It will still flow into the historic narrative by having separate Culture Groups


And I do not know Italian to make arguments about it.

I'm totally OK with current East Slavic languages setup. It solves a lot of unnecessary problems and aligns with books.
The same language family and culture group to portrays historic ties, and yes, I would also create Russian and Ruthenian culture groups within the Rus (East Slavic) culture group to make it perfect and historically accurate.

I would be OK with separate Scandinavian languages too if Old Norse was archaic by the XIV century, but I will leave the discussion about all other languages to guys from those regions and I'll accept what they see appropriate for historic gameplay for those countries.

I do not think I have anything to add because I'll just repeat myself.

 

[ibvfteh]

I don't care much for the classifications as long as it permits cultural assimilation into one nation up to a certain age
You clearly should be able to replicate the historical inclusion of "smolenskian" or "severian" culture into russian as Muscovy, or vice-versa into ukrainian if you are successful as Kiev etc, if you manage to do it early enough
Personally it seems like some event or advance after 1500's would serve this role better if the cultural unification is hardwired to the same language

edit: "this role" as in forbidding it

Well, if you create one language but two Culture Groups, you can easily do this by including Smolenskian and Severian into both Culture Groups

 

[ibvfteh]

I'm totally OK with current East Slavic languages setup. It solves a lot of unnecessary problems and aligns with books.
The same language family and culture group to portrays historic ties, and yes, I would also create Russian and Ruthenian culture groups within the Rus (East Slavic) culture group to make it perfect and historically accurate.

I would be OK with separate Scandinavian languages too if Old Norse was archaic by the XIV century, but I will leave the discussion about all other languages to guys from those regions and I'll accept what they see appropriate for historic gameplay for those countries.

I do not think I have anything to add because I'll just repeat myself.

Would I be wrong to say that you support the "splitting" side? As for splitting German because it is also two languages (High and Low German) that have diverged in the 5th century?

 

[ibvfteh]

Did a united German language go extinct? It had split in the 5th century. Did a united Scandinavian language go extinct? Old Norse survived until the 13th century if we trust Wikipedia.

Clearly, there is much more to what is portrayed in-game by languages. As all of the portrayed ones are technically extinct!

There was no Scandinavian, no united German. Everywhere were dialects, and some of them were already incredibly old

Then why are they portrayed as united?

Perhaps the language extinction is not a factor for the developers in this case.

View attachment 1304252
I believe in this image only French, Hungarian and English have existed for real.
And then, if we go deeper, the dialects of those languages repeat their names
View attachment 1304259

The language in the game is a much broader term compared to the current understanding. It can be measured with some grouping

Btw @Kotyk-durkotyk what would you say on this? How do you think why languages as German, Scandinavian, Finnic (for Sami and Fins), are portrayed as one in EU5?

 

[ryhs]

Well, if you create one language but two Culture Groups, you can easily do this by including Smolenskian and Severian into both Culture Groups

What I meant by "do it early enough" is it should cover the whole current Russian/Rus' culture group in the early game, but should become impossible after a certain point in time.
The parts of the Rus' that were acquired by Muscovy early enough, say 14th or 15th century, clearly went on to comprise a (great)russian culture, while by 17th century the example of left bank Ukraine says the opposite.
I.e. could be tied into an age advance where you replace culture unification with (increased) assimilation, but it's a hard to make it universal

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

Would I be wrong to say that you support the "splitting" side?

Very generally, rather yes than no, to certain limits.
But I have no real intention of arguing with Germans, Scandinavians, or others about their languages, especially since my knowledge is only at a general wikipedia level. I would accept what they or the devs find appropriate for their languages and history.

Btw @Kotyk-durkotyk what would you say on this? How do you think why languages as German, Scandinavian, Finnic (for Sami and Fins), are portrayed as one in EU5?

I do not know, it does not bother me at all.

 

[Zerodv]

I hope we get actual mechanics to represent this rather than have to follow the "historic narrative" when that story is based on events that most of the time won't happen in the way history went.

You should be able to develop 2 long term split literary languages in Germany or Italy, or unify East Slavic lands under one.

 

[Birchinjaro]

I hope we get actual mechanics to represent this rather than have to follow the "historic narrative" when that story is based on events that most of the time won't happen in the way history went.

You should be able to develop 2 long term split literary languages in Germany or Italy, or unify East Slavic lands under one.

Is there a mechanic like this? Seems important enough for it to be mentioned
The starting situation would still be inconsistent but it would make it much less annoying

 

[Mindstorm]

Very generally, rather yes than no, to certain limits.
But I have no real intention of arguing with Germans, Scandinavians, or others about their languages, especially since my knowledge is only at a general wikipedia level. I would accept what they or the devs find appropriate for their languages and history.


I do not know, it does not bother me at all.

Combining the sami and baltic finnic languages is at least as absurd as having a "balto-slavic language". And that's geographically right next to the debatable russian vs ruthenian split.

 

[Dennis [UA]]

This is what wikipedia says about the Ukrainian Language
Source

 

[ibvfteh]

This is what wikipedia says about the Ukrainian Language
Source

View attachment 1304869

It has been quoted here multiple times, as well as in my original post.

Problem is: there are other languages with a same situation. And they are a part of a bigger union

So you can infinitely post exactly the same article, but it won’t solve the issue. Other languages in game are not represented based on the divergence time at all.

Swedish had it own standard - still part of Scandinavian language
Norwegian was a separate language - still part of Scandinavian language
Low German had its own standard and separated hundreds of years ago - still part of German language
Saami language diverged from Finnish thousand years ago - still part of Finnish

So, what you post, is not a valid argument to split. Unless the other languages are split too

 

[Dennis [UA]]

Talking about the point with Religion, the Liturgy language is Church Slavonic for all the Rus States. So i think it its fine like it is right now