Value of provinces

[Araanor]

My first post in the CK-forum, yo.

Desirability of provinces? I don't know exactly how it's done in EU2, but I can see how it could be improved. What follows, mainly from an EU2-perspective, is what I consider to be important factors in such an algorithm:

Manpower base
Tax base
Other similar factors

Important factors, the question is whether population should affect since it is dynamic. Ie, in EU2, manpower output doubles when population goes beyond 20 000.

Trade center

Very valuable, modified by "strength" of center (hardcoded bonus in EU2) and other possible factors.

Forifications
Other "improvements"

Dependant on the value of money in the game.

Culture
Religion
CB shields

In EU2, basically the hardcoded attributes of different nations. France is more likely to want a french province rather than a german one, no? AI should also be sligthly more prone to get rid of those provinces than others.

Other nation(s) is claiming the land (CB)

Here's an interesting piece, shouldn't there be situations where the AI should avoid conflicted regions? Giving your powerful neighbor a reason to attack you isn't always desirable.

Proximity to nation's lands
Proximity to capital
Land border
Number of provinces bordering (size of land border)
Sea border
Sea port
Island

Taking above factors into consideration would keep many weird conquests under check. Ottomans shouldn't be offering you Dobrudja if you're beating them up down in the Arabian peninsula, no?

To adequately defend a province without land border you either need military access or both a port at home and at the province. It's tough in either case. If no land border, proximity to closest province or port could play in. I also think it's reasonable that number of provinces bordering would increase it's desirability. Sea border and sea port in general should make the province more desirable, it's an alternative way of transportation.

Islands, think Malta or Gotland. The closer to a port of yours, the better. Undesirable possession if you can't reach it at all.

All in all, depends a lot on how nasty rebels are and how much control you have over your vassals and such.


Anything else?

 

[Nikolai II]

Change of value of provinces trade as networks fluctuate.

Gotland was an extremely valuable trade center in the baltic (17 stone churches in one small city IIRC) until sailing tecnology made it unnecessary to use Visby as a stepping stone and instead sail straight to target.

So, from filthy rich, to just filthy

I would be sad if that was purely event-driven, but we'll see if this is the game with trade-routes, or if we have to wait even further.

 

[Nikolai II]

OOoohh.. erm.. I have been sick

I didn't manage to read you post too well it seems

Still, for values my former post was valid, but it wasn't valid for AI-evaluation...

Erm.. carry on the good work there.. very well done..


Still, desirability in CK would be, as far as I understand, just the matter of getting a CB-shield on the province, to be able to add it to your realm.

This, since in CK you can't take provinces without CB (unless you are a non-player like the hordes or the turks, but those are non- players)

Valid points for EU3 though

 

[Araanor]

Ah yes, looks like I'm too EU-centric. Many points still hold, though. My wish is that the issue will be thought through enough so that we won't have to see the weird conquests the AI does in EU2.

 

[Idiotboy]

Well I think that the economy should be most derived from trade. As in provs with trade should get a lot more cash than purely agrarian one. Still we have yet to see how this will be modeled in CK as they are revamping the system. Anyhow tax wise it was always easier to to use tolls than to actually go out and tax people which leads to trade=tolls=cash=good. As for manpower well I would like to see that depending of the richness of a prov you could demand a certain number of men at arms from the vassal of the prov. Perhaps this could number could be flexible depending on how much troops you need vs how loyal the vassal is.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Idiotboy
Well I think that the economy should be most derived from trade. As in provs with trade should get a lot more cash than purely agrarian one. Still we have yet to see how this will be modeled in CK as they are revamping the system. Anyhow tax wise it was always easier to to use tolls than to actually go out and tax people which leads to trade=tolls=cash=good. As for manpower well I would like to see that depending of the richness of a prov you could demand a certain number of men at arms from the vassal of the prov. Perhaps this could number could be flexible depending on how much troops you need vs how loyal the vassal is.

Hmmm. I'm really curious, because i always had exactly the opposite impression, that trade was insignificant compared to land income. Especially in earlier periods, as opposed to EU one.

 

[Pwyll]

Manpower in province will only be as valuable as troop type available there. 300 peasants Vs. 30 Hvy Horse....I would not like to be one of the peasants. Will we have to think more of potential as EU did with certain resources or just use resources that have been and will assumed to always be there??

 

[unmerged(703)]

Hmmm....

..... there must be some factors that are related to the province itself and it's citizens. Example resources and skills. Some areas had iron ore other was famous for skilled black smiths etc
I think that even if the skills actually was average a good reputation made their products more valuable thus the province richer....

 

[Nikolai II]

Re: Hmmm....

Originally posted by bmolsson
..... there must be some factors that are related to the province itself and it's citizens. Example resources and skills. Some areas had iron ore other was famous for skilled black smiths etc
I think that even if the skills actually was average a good reputation made their products more valuable thus the province richer....

Wasn't it more that access to ore and fuel meant that it was good lands for smithies which lead to conglomeration of smithies and later exchange of ideas or specialization.

IIRC specialization reached so far that in late medieval times there were german villages where the blacksmiths only made right shoulders for full plate armors, which when added to other villages products would become complete sets of full plate armor.

Similarly, in areas good for wineyards you will get plenty of bottlers as well.

The important thing is to remember that the things needed for these industries need not have been produced locally, only be in ready access by trade.

 

[bgibbard]

Re: Re: Hmmm....

Originally posted by Nikolai II
Similarly, in areas good for wineyards you will get plenty of bottlers as well.

In the CK timeframe it would be coopers rather than glassmakers. Wine didn't start being put in bottles rather than barrels until the 17th century.

 

[Nikolai II]

Re: Re: Re: Hmmm....

Originally posted by bgibbard


In the CK timeframe it would be coopers rather than glassmakers. Wine didn't start being put in bottles rather than barrels until the 17th century.

So, when was champagne introduced? Did it thus begin it's life as 'I'll just have a barrel of champagne?


On topic: The problem with strange realms looking like patchworks of unconnected provinces shouldn't be a problem, only historicity

Prussia in 19th century, or Provence and France in 1419 scenario comes to mind, among others.

 

[Havard]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Hmmm....

Originally posted by Nikolai II




So, when was champagne introduced? Did it thus begin it's life as 'I'll just have a barrel of champagne?

The first recorded production of bottle fermented sparkling wine is dated to 1531, at the Abbey of Saint-Hilaire at Limoux in southern France. Not quite within the game timespan...

 

[HVC]

I for one hope that provincial values will be more fluid. I severely doubt that a post-plage Provence has the same value as its pre-plage state. Little things (not that it’s easy to program ) like changes in provincial income due to change in population or a sudden influx of specialists or Burghers would be really nice and very much appreciated, by me at least. At any rate I truly believe that this game will be great and hope for the privilege of being a beta tester ( can’t hurt to bring it up ).