WAD or Bug for conflict in New Population Culture+Rank

[Nuclear Elvis]

I'm a detailed micro-manager in these PDX games, and dive into the sub-menus to learn the how-to in all these PDX games, but I only play vanilla/no-mods, and I don't know the game code nor trying to figure out that stuff, but this is just about the process of how new population growth works and whether I found a bug. Game setup info:
Normal>Ironman.
Nation: Armenia.
Primary culture: Armenian.
Religion: Zoroastrian.

Having set that up - reference my 2x screenshots for a question related to Culture and Rank, for New Growth populations. To be clear, this is about new growth, not Immigration (which is also in the first screenshot bottom middle, but the new growth is top right of the pop-up).

Note that in the 2nd screenshot, it shows that Sarmatian does NOT have authority to gain Civilian "Civic Right" as the Dev's described that "Rank" of Civ Pops in the game, above the Freeman status, so no Citizen nor Noble allowed for Sarmatian Culture pops, and existing pops in those Ranks must Demote. However...my New Growth shows Sarmatian creating brand new Citizens, which should be disallowed/denied in the process of initial pop creation (at least, it's always denied in PDX's other games with similar metrics). Admittedly, I'm framing this from thinking that the ruleset should function just like Vicky series where these ranks were denied from initial build.

So, is this Working As Designed (WAD) for the Sarmatian new growth pop to be generating as a Citizen as the first time that pop enters the game's data pool, or is that an oversight by the Dev's in the way they didn't force-restrict New Growth pops in unauthorized Ranks, and this is a Bug? I would think that - a new Growth pop, if it must be Sarmatian, should only generate up to Freeman rank. Or, there should be an odds possibility that an Armenian Zoroaster is generated, given that those are both primary culture and religion, right? I've looked across all my provinces and this same trend shows that pops are new-growing into unauthorized ranks (Civic Right status).

 

[IsaacCAT]

It could be that the POP was already growing when the civic right was changed.

You should let time pass and see that growing POPs abide by their civic rights.

However, there are known bugs that we are aware of:

• It makes no difference citizen/noble civic right, you will end up growing the same number of noble POPs
• Slaves can migrate, even if the wiki says they can’t. Alas, they do it very slowly, creating a migration blockade in that territory for ages

These bugs are not game breaking, but worth knowing while PDS or modders do not adress them.

 

[DukeLeto42]

If it's not what IsaacCAT suggests, don't forget the possibility that it's just an oversight (that is, nobody ever made a design decision about whether or not pops should be able to grow at a stratum they can't promote to).

This is all to say you've asked a question I at least have never bothered to ask, to which I should add a hearty thank you for having discovered something.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Well, the tooltip on civic rights says it denies promoting to citizen, not growing.

It could be a game oversight. Growing citizens and then demoting to their civic right may be caused by the high citizens desired ratio in that city and the majoritarian culture of that territory. It is not that outlandish to think that locally they grow citizens and the metropolis force them to demote.

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

Well, the tooltip on civic rights says it denies promoting to citizen, not growing.

It could be a game oversight. Growing citizens and then demoting to their civic right may be caused by the high citizens desired ratio in that city and the majoritarian culture of that territory. It is not that outlandish to think that locally they grow citizens and the metropolis force them to demote.

Perfect world (and game), once a new regime/empire takes over a Province, everything "against the rules" of the Empire would cease and desist, and only allowable actions take place, such as - only growing Pops in authorized ranks (Civic Rights status). So it doesn't matter if that Pop was already growing - pull the plug, insert new egg in the incubator, because the new empire has rules against that. Just making a point that - the Dev's have this and a few other metrics that I'm finding, that they need to clean up. You have to look at this problem of nerfing Culture changes in contrast to other PDX games and their "pace" of culture changes. In EU and others, it's slow, I realize, but at least you know what that pace is, and what actions to take. However, here in I:R that pace becomes mysterious, partly because the game's code and these sub-menus don't actually reveal a consistent pace at all. Further - when an Empire takes over, it's like there's a shadow kingdom that keeps growing inside the Empire against the rules. You have to play a large kingdom like Armenia to see this really play out, to get the picture as I have - I'm not keeping pace at transitioning the kingdom to the Armenian culture.

One already used technique that Paradox could insert here - Dev's could have installed a Stellaris type of option for giving decisions (with consequences) to restrict growth in undesired "species" (in this case, humans other than Armenians).

 

[IsaacCAT]

In reality things work more like I:R than in your dystopian futuristic society were everything is insta applied.

I like my ancient times slow food type of game.

But you are right that the game could explain itself better.

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

An update on the potential for "Why" this is, the way it is.
- Any single population of Culture/Religion type, has a percentage chance of "reproducing" and inserting their copy/pasted type into the "Growth" area in top right of the "View Pops Info" pop-up screen.

At least, that's how this was explained to me as the going theory in offline conversation about this issue. A codemaster would need to dive into Paradox's code and verify if the variables used to enter into the lottery pool for all the potential types in "Growth" - do include all current Pops, and I have no clue whether there is more/less chance depending on the proportionality of current pops in the land holding or how it works.

I would still argue, the Dev's should look at this, and if they do:
- In the process of new "Growth" when a Pop spits out 100% completed and added to the town -- the new Pop in the Growth Incubator should fall in line with going Restrictions to Status-by-Culture (or, yet another idea - keep the game as-is but some nations could have "features" that restrict unapproved Pop growth, because they certainly did that in the real world, if they chose to go that far...).

 

[DukeLeto42]

- Any single population of Culture/Religion type, has a percentage chance of "reproducing" and inserting their copy/pasted type into the "Growth" area in top right of the "View Pops Info" pop-up screen.

At least, that's how this was explained to me as the going theory in offline conversation about this issue. A codemaster would need to dive into Paradox's code and verify if the variables used to enter into the lottery pool for all the potential types in "Growth" - do include all current Pops, and I have no clue whether there is more/less chance depending on the proportionality of current pops in the land holding or how it works.

I'm fairly certain this is not the case, as the growing pop should be of the dominant culture and faith. That said, pops in growth don't seem to change as the dominant culture / faith switches, and also when it's equal (say, as many Macedonians as Assyrians) there may be a difference in which group growth defaults to as opposed to what is displayed as dominant and used as dominant for conversion / assimilation.

I would still argue, the Dev's should look at this, and if they do:
- In the process of new "Growth" when a Pop spits out 100% completed and added to the town -- the new Pop in the Growth Incubator should fall in line with going Restrictions to Status-by-Culture (or, yet another idea - keep the game as-is but some nations could have "features" that restrict unapproved Pop growth, because they certainly did that in the real world, if they chose to go that far...).

Completely agree.