wars that never seem to end...

[aino]

This post will have a lot of answerable questions, so feel free to chime in.

I just started a new game as France in the newest version of the IGC. I get into an alliance with my vassal Brittany, Savoy, Scotland and the Papal States. For over three years I try to get Alsace-Lorraine, Navarra and Poland-Lithuania into my alliance, but they reject me every time I ask. I have at any given time +50 relation with all of them, royal marriages with all of them and they're not in alliances, but they steadfastly refuse to join with me. I must have asked Alsace-Lorraine four times and I was rejected all four times. (no reloads)

Finally, an alliance forms between Spain, England, Alsace-Lorraine, Milan, The Paltinat and Poland-Lithuania, and I'm upset because now I'm effectively surrounded. I try to get alliances with Baden and Helvetia to surround Lorraine but they steadfastly refuse to join me as well. I'm starting to get annoyed. Anyone know what gives? I'm militarily strong at this point, or so I believe.

Anyway, I build up defenses and land forces. I forget about naval forces for the time being, because with Spain, Lorraine and the Paltinat all in striking distance, I figure that naval forces would be a waste of ducats at the moment.

But I think I'm going to be spared, because this time Turkey comes out as the serious badboy. They militarily annex the Mameluks, then turn and annex Wallachia. Then they militarily annex Hungary! They have -200 with almost every power. Finally everyone and their brother starts to declare war on Turkey. I diplomatically keep my distance.

Anyway, war finally comes when Scotland decides to declare war on England. Spain, England, Lorraine, Milan and the Paltinat are all mobilized and move on me. I have almost 200k worth of troops at this point. My armies beat back England and Spain. I take Calais, French Comte, and Rousillion and the territory south of Rousillion.

England and Spain are getting whooped. Sad thing is that Lorraine and The Paltinat are rampaging through France. It struck me as amusing that England and Spain were impotent to do anything against me, but The Paltinat can do SUCH damage (they took two of my territories and looted over half) It was so bad that I diverted my Calais siege troops to Pfalz JUST so I could knock The Paltinat out of the war, which I did. Then I pulled all of my armies out of what they were doing and converged on Lorraine, because Lorraine was SUCH a greater threat to me than Spain. I assault Lorraine, and I lose the battle as both troops were at Panic. It was so frustrating. I didn't get another shot because Spanish reinforcements beat me back out of Lorraine.

Portugal and their German alliance take this time to attack Savoy and my allies. I'm very upset by this, so I sign a white peace with England (my allies soon follow) and I make plans to mobilize against Portugal. Getting into wars with Portugal in 1510 is nice though... stolen rutters

Anyway, I build a bunch of transport ships, and I go take the Azores. Then I come back to Europe and land in Portugal and take Opporto and Tago. I have Portugal SOUNDLY defeated, and I take the Azores and Opporto (that'll teach em) and sign peace, thinking that since the Portugese are whooped that they'll sign peace with Savoy and end this so I can annex Brittany.

Nope. They continue to sit in a state of war. My allies and the Portugese allies have been at war now for 25 years, and they don't do anything! I think Scotland and Hansa keep getting in naval battles or something, because they just won't sign the white peace. I want to annex Brittany, but this war just won't end. Argh! I wish there was a feature to coerce someone to end a war. Brittany, Scotland and Savoy just build and build and build and build, till each province has 40-50k soldiers, and they don't do anything. It seems like the only thing I can do to stop this at this point is declare war on Portugal and her allies and militarily annex all of them just to end this stupid war, but I don't want to do that. Very annoying.

Well, this has been relatively long, but two questions:

1) Why won't some nations join me in alliance for no reason? Are some nations predisposed to join certain countries, or am I just really unlucky with the Random Number Generator?

2) Anyone have any advice on what to do with my allies and Portugal war situation? I want to annex Brittany and Vassalize Savoy but I can't do it while they sit around and mobilize and fight a phantom war.

 

[unmerged(1302)]

1. There is a limit on how many countries can be in alliance. You probably reached it.

2. You can't do nothing about it, unless you switch the sides in the game (just for a second), start your saved game as Portugal and offer a white peace to whoever the leader of that alliance is. Otherwise it'll go on until they run out of ships.

 

[unmerged(548)]

1. There is a limit on how many countries can be in alliance. You probably reached it.

There is no such limit AFAIK (I've been the leader of a 8 nation alliance my self).

There are probably lots of things affecting what makes a cpountry decide if it wants to join an allaince with you.
For inctance, if a nation like you but hate the guts of one or more of the nations already in your alliance, you will have a rally hard time convincing them to join.

Also, +50 in relations isn't really that high. They are just a tad over beeing indifferent towards you.

 

[unmerged(1255)]

Originally posted by Huszics
1. There is a limit on how many countries can be in alliance. You probably reached it.

There is no such limit AFAIK

Well, how about a vassal with +195 refusing to join my alliance, and there was no hatred between the vassal and any of the alliance members. I reloaded and started to form my alliance with that vassal, thereafter inviting the other guys. When I invited the fifth member (another vassal...) he refused. If you say there isn't a limit, there probably isn't a limit, but it's damn hard to get more than four alliance partners...

 

[Misha]

Alliance Limits

Well, if Husziks says there is no limit to the number of nations in an alliance, he must be right...

But in my (admittedly limited) experience, I have never seen a human player get more than 4 partners in an alliance. Go for a 5th, and you get rejected - no matter how high the relations are among you, your present partners, & your potential 5th.

The computer nations seem to be able to exceed this, although I can't recall ever seeing more than 6 in a computer-led alliance either.

So it seems to me that there must be a limit, but if Husziks had 8 in one, then I must be wrong...

 

[BiB]

Yes, it's hard but it's not impossible. I lead 5 and 6 nation alliances before.

 

[unmerged(931)]

I managed to get six in an alliance only once. I saw an AI alliance with eight. There must be an explanable reason for this. What's the formula?

 

[State Machine]

I have had five and six other countries in alliances, both as alliance leader, and as member or just observing other alliances.

Some countries just don't like other countries (regardless of rating). This according to some posts I've seen. Of course, in my case, The Teutonic Order doesn't like me. It doesn't matter what country I play, they never want to ally with me.

If you really want, you can delete a war from the save file. I resorted to that once when a Portugal vs. P-L war had been going on forever and was starting to bug me (I had wanted to ally with Portugal for a longgggg time, but being at war...). I looked in the save file and found the war was 58 years in duration! I'll bet nothing had happened in 56 years. No territory was controlled by opponents. Several alliance members on both sides had one star on each other with the leaders having no stars. I deleted it.

 

[unmerged(2640)]

In regards to the alliance question, I am using version 1.08 and have not yet managed to get more than 4 other nations to join my alliance. As soon as the number in the alliance gets reduced (diplo-annexing Scotland for example), it was possible to get the same country that was refusing before to join the alliance. So I think that there is a limit, maybe a soft one which makes it astronomically much harder to get the fifth alliance member. I guess I should try to edit a savegame and put all the relationship numbers for all countries involved to +200 (if that is possible) and see if I can increase the alliance to 5 or more members.

With respect to the eternal war question, I agree that it can be very frustrating, but it seems that it is also somewhat historically accurate (130 years war etc). Sometimes, I guess the egos of the kings involved just keeps them in an almost perpetual state of war, even if there is not much activity. ('What? Sign a peace treaty with those treacherous, villaneous, war-mongering heathens? Not for the life of me.' ).

 

[unmerged(548)]

Anyway, people shouldn't be too sad that they can't get alliances that are very large.

Large alliances tend to breake themselfs apart pretty fast. That is actually what hapened to me when I had my 8 nation alliance too (in a late 1.08 beta btw), one of the nations decided it should start a stupid war and 3 or 4 natuions just dropped out =(

The best/strongest allainces don't have more then 3-4 members in them.

For the record, the only reason I had an 8 nation alliance was becurse people where saying all over the place that there was a max limit to both alliance members(4-5) and Royal marriages (8-10).

Annoyed at all the whineing i booted up a new game and quite quickly got a 8 nation alliance & some 20+ RM at the same time playing as Russia (and orthodox countries get VERY few diplomats).

As always, having a high DIP monarch is a benefit too, if you want to pull someting like this of.

 

[BiB]

Exactly, a small yet strong closeknit alliance is the way to go. U don't need allies for the sake of it but countries who will stick by u thruout times, hard and good.

 

[unmerged(2640)]

BiB wrote:
Exactly, a small yet strong closeknit alliance is the way to go. U don't need allies for the sake of it but countries who will stick by u thruout times, hard and good.


True, but how do you guarantee that they will stick with you if one of the large and powerful nations (Spain, France) declares war on you? I would think having a large alliance would help to guarantee that at least a few of them will help you.

 

[jls211]

For a large alliance pool, try playing as the Papal States. Early in the game, I truly had RMs with all of Europe (minus the Moslems, of course). Until my most recent war, I had France, Scotland, Savoy, Milan, Tuscany, Helvetia, Genoa, and Navarra in my military alliance.

During the war with Spain, Navarra and Milan were annexed while France made a separate peace (b*stards ). I am playing at normal/normal if that makes a difference (dunno). As Russia, England, and Denmark, it did seem impossible to get more than a few to join -- I guess everyone loves the Pope...

 

[unmerged(548)]

Originally posted by jls211
For a large alliance pool, try playing as the Papal States. Early in the game, I truly had RMs with all of Europe (minus the Moslems, of course). Until my most recent war, I had France, Scotland, Savoy, Milan, Tuscany, Helvetia, Genoa, and Navarra in my military alliance.

During the war with Spain, Navarra and Milan were annexed while France made a separate peace (b*stards ). I am playing at normal/normal if that makes a difference (dunno). As Russia, England, and Denmark, it did seem impossible to get more than a few to join -- I guess everyone loves the Pope...

Damn you for beating me, both in alliances and RMs

 

[unmerged(548)]

but how do you guarantee that they will stick with you if one of the large and powerful nations (Spain, France) declares war on you

Keep relations really high to all of them (150+).
Choose good allies (same religion etc)

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by M P
BiB wrote:
Exactly, a small yet strong closeknit alliance is the way to go. U don't need allies for the sake of it but countries who will stick by u thruout times, hard and good.


True, but how do you guarantee that they will stick with you if one of the large and powerful nations (Spain, France) declares war on you? I would think having a large alliance would help to guarantee that at least a few of them will help you.

Basically what Huszics said. Keep close to pêrfect relations and be a good ally urself. Then they'll always stand by u.