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fredinno

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May 21, 2017
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Was Operation Typhoon winnable? I know a lot of people in alternate history forums talking about how the Germans taking Moscow was impossible- but I need it for my TL.

So was Moscow even possible to be taken by the Axis? Hitler almost certainly had one shot- a long shot. That was 1941. I honestly think that the Nazis had to attack in fall- or never. And Moscow was too important, strategically, and symbolically, to leave alone.

I think the move South and North to siege Leningrad and Kiev were pretty justified- Kiev was an important industrial center, after all- and it encircled an enormous amount of Soviet Divisions.


Here is what I got:
-Decent Weather allows Wehrmacht to attack a month earlier.

-Soviets convinced another Japanese border conflict imminent, until Early 1942, tying up 5-10 more divisions in Siberia.

-Plain freaking luck.
 
The short guy from france did prove in 1812 that moskva is not descisive.
I doubt the short guy with the funny moustache would have experienced anything different.;)
 
The short guy from france did prove in 1812 that moskva is not descisive.
I doubt the short guy with the funny moustache would have experienced anything different.;)

Every time this gets brought up, I wish the poster of this particular non-seqitour would get bludgeoned with a railroad map of the USSR in 1940 until more enlightened.
 
Every time this gets brought up, I wish the poster of this particular non-seqitour would get bludgeoned with a railroad map of the USSR in 1940 until more enlightened.

Oh I know that argument. Dont worry.
Its not a serious question to start with.:cool:
So no offense intended and none taken.;)
 
The short guy from france did prove in 1812 that moskva is not descisive.
I doubt the short guy with the funny moustache would have experienced anything different.;)
Russia was an agricultural society then. Stalin had turned Russia into an industrial society, and only as such did she stand a chance to defeat Germany in ww2.
 
I question is not if taking Moscow would have been important- it surely was.

My question was that if it was winnable. Could the Germans successfully surround the city, and besiege it, before the onset of winter?
 
Yes but only with forces from Leningrad or the southern front.
 
It was highly unlikely that Operation Typhoon would have succeeded as planned by the OKH, that is, a wide encirclement of Moscow with two armored pincers closing around the city far to its east. As it happened in real history, only the 2 panzer armies in the northern arm of the pincer managed to get anywhere close to Moscow; as Guderian's 2nd Panzer Army barely managed to get further than Tula (173 km south of Moscow), and the Germans never managed to even take this city, which was a major weapons manufacturing center.

In order for the original planning for Typhoon to work, the Germans would have needed full collaboration by the Soviets, with they refusing to fight and allowing them to roll forwards unopposed, not to speak of the weather also playing it nicely to the Germans. Previsibly, neither thing came to happen.

As the supply branch of the OKH warned Brauchitsch, Halder and Bock in September, the supply situation was hopeless even at the start of the offensive. All of Army Group Center (AGC) derived its supplies from a single rail line that was totally incapable to deal with such pressure, the main rail line Warsaw-Minsk-Smolensk-Moscow. Along this line, the Germans needed to bring forward supplies for an offensive by more than 1,900,000 men and 1,000 tanks, operating along a front line more than 400 km long, situated at more than 1,000 km from the borders of the Reich. The logistics branch of the OKH was blunt in its prediction: if the intensity of fighting and the operational rythm was to be similar to that of the summer campaign, the supply system would be able to cover a bit over 50% of AGC's needs for a space of time of two weeks. More than that, and the system would collapse and the it would be able to deliver just between 10-20% of the total load of supplies needed.

Why was the situation so? Well, first the situation of the railways. Not only did AGC "hang" from a single line, but many parts of it had been seriously sabotaged by the Soviets during their retreat and had still not been repaired, the Germans were still converting sectors of it to the European gauge, plus many sectors crossed uninhabited tracts of land (mainly forests and swamps) infested with partisans who were becoming increasingly active. Soviet railways' construction was much shabbier than the German one, and so many lines could not take the weight of German locomotives or fully loaded German wagons. To top it all, Germany lacked enough locomotives and rolling stock, and when winter came there came the nasty surprise that the design of German locomotives was unsuited to Russian conditions. The situation would not stabilize until the spring of 1942, when the Germans finished their repairs and improvements of Soviet lines, and they began producing a new model of locomotive suited to eastern front conditions (they built more than 7,000 of these locomotives during the following years).

Then there was the problem of distributing the supplies along the front line (there's more than 400 km in air distance from Velikiye Luki to Bryansk, the actual lenght of the front was larger than that) from the rail head at Smolensk. That had to be done either by truck or by horse pulled wagons, and both the numbers of serviceable trucks and horses had dropped dramatically since the start of the campaign. When the rasputitsa began, this task became a nightmare (although we should take into account that the rasputitsa was equally damaging for the movements of both armies, the Soviets were just aware that it was coming as it did every year, and they did not to keep a steady offensive advancing).

The only thing that could have alleviated this abysmal situation would have been for the Germans to build up huge stockpiles of supplies behind their lines as near as possible to the front during the lull of September between the end of the battle of Smolensk and the start of Typhoon, but they did not, for several reasons.

By October 1941, the Soviets were in very bad shape after their repeated maulings at the hands of the Ostheer, and by then the Germans had more men, tanks, guns and airplanes serviceable in front of Moscow than the Red Army. But unlike the Germans, the Soviets were in a much better supply situation (much nearer to their production centers, and with good railway lines in full service behing them) and the huge amounts of men mobilized in July-August were entering active service, with a very large strategic reserve retained by the STAVKA near Moscow that by late November and early December was the equivalent of 40 infantry divisions (mainly in the form of brigades); in contrast to that AGC had zero reserves availables, both in men and machines; once the battle began the Germans would be unable to get any reinforcements or even repair damaged tanks or trucks, as their disastrous supply system (and the lack of foresight of German industrial planners) failed to deliver practically any spare parts to the front line.
 
So the best way to fight was simply not to fight, and to accept the inability to capture Moscow- concentrating any extra divisions to capture Leningrad and Sevestapol?
 
The Germans were plain blind lucky not just once but twice. An alt-history that just supposes that lucky streak never ends... well what's the point exactly? What is this mental exercise setting out to accomplish?
 
Here is what I got:
-Decent Weather allows Wehrmacht to attack a month earlier.

-Soviets convinced another Japanese border conflict imminent, until Early 1942, tying up 5-10 more divisions in Siberia.

-Plain freaking luck.

Siberia tied up about 50 (?) divisions at all time, even later the Japanese was busy elsewhere they were still an enemy with about 2 mil of troop in the Manchu and Korea.

Hitler can hope Zhukov get truck by something. The Moscow defense was broken a hole in Smolensk, and the Russia had to drop some paratroops just to hold their own bridges, then Zhukov was called back from Leningrad and prepared the new Mozhaisk line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Moscow#Mozhaisk_defense_line_.2813.E2.80.9330_October.29
 
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So the best way to fight was simply not to fight, and to accept the inability to capture Moscow- concentrating any extra divisions to capture Leningrad and Sevestapol?

Leningrad is not too much important as Nazi can encircle it and stop it from being a major of production. Sevastopol is just an annoying thing because Soviet bombing on Romania oil, it is cut from mainland and can not start big counter attack. Stalingrad and Caucasus oil was dangerous place to protect flanks.

The point is if Hitler could not conquer Moscow then he was better not invade Soviet!
 
The Germans were plain blind lucky not just once but twice. An alt-history that just supposes that lucky streak never ends... well what's the point exactly? What is this mental exercise setting out to accomplish?
Well, the TL removed the Nazis doing Operation Typhoon now. It was a mental excercise that kind of proved a point, I guess. :p

Oh yeah, BTW, check it out, I've updated it again, with the Nazi Victory TL- at least 1/2 of it.
 
The short guy from france did prove in 1812 that moskva is not descisive.
I doubt the short guy with the funny moustache would have experienced anything different.;)
The difference with Napoleon was he lost about a 1/3 of his army at Borodino and then couldn't hold Moscow as it was pillaged and partially destroyed during a harsh Russian winter with no food to feed an army of tens of thousands. Whilst the Imperial Russian army just sat outside Moscow waiting. You'll actually find it's a similar scenario to what happened at Leningrad during WW2.
 
So the best way to fight was simply not to fight, and to accept the inability to capture Moscow- concentrating any extra divisions to capture Leningrad and Sevestapol?

The fact is that German strategic planning was deeply flawed from the start, and it was based on a series of assumptions that were quickly proved false after a month of the start of Barbarossa.

Historically, the Prussian / German military thinking followed the saying of Frederick the Great: Prussia was a continental power with exposed borders on all sides, and so its wars had to be led in a quick and violent way, and aimed at the destruction first and foremost of the enemy's field armies in the quickest possible way.

This led to the Prussian / German General Staff to be centered almost exclusively on operational planning, and to ignore all the other factors that would only become really important in face of a protracted war. But as Germany would never face a protracted war, they were unimportant; it was a kind of circular thinking. Added to it, there was another failure less exclusable, the indifference towards proper intelligence work, which was mainly a subproduct of arrogance.

In Barbarossa, all these traits of German military thinking just failed to deliver, as they had failed to do so in 1914. But as these principles had given them an astonishing triumph over the western Allies in May-June 1940, the Germans had fully recovered their self-confidence and were sure that this way of waging war would also allow them to prevail over the Soviet Union.

Fuelled by self-confidence, Hitler, the OKH and the OKW planned a flawed campaign in Barbaross, and all its contradictions came to the fore in August 1941, when it became clear to all that the original plan (the total destruction of the Red Army west of the Dvina-Dnieper river line, less than 500 km inside the USSR) had failed.

Then the real bickering and infighting began between the OKH and Hitler about how the campaign should be conducted from that moment on. It should be told that until them there'd been total agreement between Hitler and his generals about the main goal of Barbarossa: the destruction of the Red Army as a coherent fighting force, in the classical Prussian way of Frederick the Great or Moltke the Elder, preferably by encirclement battles.

But in late August and early September, Hitler and the OKH had accepted that the war against the USSR would not be won in 1941 and that a further campaign (hopefully the definitive one) would be needed in 1942. But what should be done with the four-six weeks of good weather that they had still available? And here the real differences emerged between Halder (head of the OKH) and Hitler.

Halder wanted to launch a direct blow to Moscow immediately. And his reasoning was that, as Moscow was such an important transportation nod, industrial and population center, and the political capital of the USSR, the Soviets would launch there all their remaining forces, allowing the Ostheer finally to fight the climactic, apocaliptic encirclement battle that would destroy the Red Army for ever.

But Halder's fixation on Moscow found many objections, not only in Hitler. For starters, Hitler was very aware that rather than going 200 km eastwards to fight a Red Army that could or could not be concentrated there around the capital, there were more than 600,000 Soviet soldiers in the Southwestern Front concentrated around Kiev, blocking the advance of Army Group South and menacing the right flank of any advance further east towards Moscow. Added to it, if the war against the USSR was to keep going at least for a year more, capturing the economic resources of the Ukraine would be key, both to win them for the German economy and to deny them to the Soviets. They were solid strategic reasons.

And then there was the question that Bock and the army and army group commanders of Army Group Center wanted to stop, rest their troops, reorganize, repair their vehicles and AFVs and gather supplies before any further advance east after two months of non-stop fighting. It need not be a full month, but at they eckoned that at least one or two weeks were completely necessary. The supply situation was also hanging on a thin thread, and at last Bock and his subordinate field commanders acknowledged the necessity to fix as much as it was possible the rail transport and the roads behing the lines before any further pushed east could be launched.

Given this state of things, Hitler imposed his will (he was supreme commander, and he had the right to do so) and the AGC was ordered to rest and rebuild, but he ordered its two panzer groups to be ceded one to Army Group North and the other to Army Group South. This ensured that Leeb encircled Leningrad and that the Germans won the amazing encirclement battle at Kiev.

The rational thing at this point would have been to keep advancing just in the south, where the Soviet front had collapsed, and stop and entrench everywhere else, amybe launchng only limited operations to gain further jumping points for next year's campaign.

Instead, Halder began again pressuring with his idea to attack Moscow, as he still hoped that a decisive Kesselschlacht against Moscow would break the Red Army's backbone, and if that did not happen, it would break havoc on the Soviet railways, as they were built radially from Moscow, and make it impossible for the Soviets to move troops or supplies north of Moscow.

And Hitler agreed, making a big mistake, for all the reasons exposed in my post above. The Germans just pushed too far, and they ran out of luck. Typhoon began on October 2, way too late in the season, once 2nd and 3rd Panzer Armies rejoined AGC and 4th Panzer Army was detached from AGN and joined 3rd Panzer Army in the northern arm of the offensive.

By then, the Soviets had had a full month to recover strength, but instead of reinforcing the lines in front of Moscow, all their efforts had gone to trying to save Leningrad and to trying to plug the gaping hole created in their southern front by the Kiev débacle. In little more than one week, the German AGC encircled the Western and Reserve Fronts, opening a huge gap in the Soviet front directly in front of Moscow. By October 10, the German armored pincers had closed around the Vyazma and Bryansk pockets, but the surrounded Soviet forces kept on fighting, forcing the Germans to employ 28 divisions to reduce both pockets. And on October 7, rasputitsa began, which turned all further German advances into a crawl.

When the Germans began moving again eastwards, they found another nasty surprise: the approaches to Moscow were not open, for the Soviets still had available forces there, and a defence line (the Mozhaisk line) that the Germans encountered on October 13. Plus, Stalin had appointed Zhukov as general supervisor of all the fronts defending the approaches to Moscow, and this time Zhukov (who had been until then propping things up in Leningrad) made sure that the scarce Soviet forces available were competently deployed, blocking the most likely avenues that the German armored columns would be using.

The Mozhaisk line served its purpose, because it slowed down the German advance, giving time to STAVKA to build more fortificatins around Moscow, to evacuate critical industrial plants and workforce, and to move and train more forces to defend the capital. Until the October 27, the Germans were not able to force the crossing of the Mozhaisk line after heavy fighting (and heavy losses), with Zhukov directing an orderly withdrawal of his forces to another defence line along the eastern bank of the Nara river.

In the meantime, the German armored pincers had tried to outflank the Mozhaisk line; the 3rd and 4th Panzer Armies had outflanked it far to the north taking Kalinin, and the 2nd Panzer Army (Guderian's) taking Kaluga but being repealed at Tula by an improvised defense of 50th Army soldiers and civilian militia (October 26-29).

By October 31, the OKH ordered a pause in operations to all units of AGC to reorganize, regroup and bring forward any supplies that could be scrapped together.

By then, the Germans had been fighting for a whole month with high intensity and they'd still not reached Moscow, although the city was just 200 km from the starting point of the offensive. For the next and final push the OKH waited until November 15 (of course, the Soviets also profited from this lull in operations).

Why did they wait until November 15? They waited until then because by then the ground had frozen solid, and so the rasputitsa was over, which restored much of its mobility to the German armored pincers; contrary to popualr myth, the oncoming of winter actually favored the German advance.

But this final German advance was a crawl in front of an increasingly stiffening Soviet resistance, which was what put a stop to the German advance, with minimal gains against huge losses. By the end, while 2nd Panzer Army was unable to bypass Tula in the south, the 3rd and 4th Panzer Armies were launching frontal assaults trying to reach Moscow, having abandoned all plans of a grandiose eastern encirclement (which completely defeated the original purpose of Typhoon).
 
Hmm, this does lend itself to a possible alternative - Stop after Vyazma/Bryansk are pocketed, reduce the pockets, and see what you can do down south with the freed-up supplies; the Soviets need to rebuild the central front anyhow since you're already too close to Moscow to ignore.
 
Hmm, this does lend itself to a possible alternative - Stop after Vyazma/Bryansk are pocketed, reduce the pockets, and see what you can do down south with the freed-up supplies; the Soviets need to rebuild the central front anyhow since you're already too close to Moscow to ignore.

The Soviets started a counteroffensive in Moscow in December, which I imagine they would do no matter what. Considering how hard fought this offensive was for the Germans, they'd need considerable resources in place to fight it off.

In the south there is still considerable fighting after Kiev, for example the Crimean peninsula was taken around the same period.

So it would be important to know how much of its strength the German army lost after clearing the pockets in front of Moscow and fruitlessly continuing the offensive afterwards, and how much sending that strength to the south would help their operations.
 
Or doing the unexpected and declare war on the US in December 1941. this would have taken anyone with surprise. *nods*
 
I want to read an alt history where the Germans go "this is pointless, we're never going to win this war in the east" and withdraw everything to somewhere around the Oder ^^