What are your main gripes with the map?

[Mr Jangoon]

Firstly, let me state that I fully understand that a lot of these things may be due to engine limitations, and I have the utmost respect for the developers of this game. That being said, let's talk map-inaccuracies.

The one that really didn't sit right with me is that a lot of post-colonial borders exist at the beginning of the game, even though borders such as Johnson, McMahon, Durand, etc were drawn in mid 1800s

 

[Zaku]

I think this is a great topic, and I propose that Pdox should give us access to the game right now, so we can discuss this topic deeply by examining the map really carefully in the game.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid]

I haven't seen the full map yet.

The area that I have some specialist knowledge about (South Africa) is really hard to map in 1836. The Great Trek is still very much underway, boundaries of the Boer Republics are not yet fully determined, Natalia has not been founded at all, and Zululand is still in the tail end of its wars of expansion. There are a lot of ways to get it wrong and no absolutely surefire way to get it right.

 

[Mr Jangoon]

I think this is a great topic, and I propose that Pdox should give us access to the game right now, so we can discuss this topic deeply by examining the map really carefully in the game.

real funny, but i think its a good time to start talking about the map, since we pretty much have seen everything in streams and AARS

 

[759578590]

There are two aspects. First, we cannot change the border shape of the province during the game. This may be a limitation of the game engine, and there is basically no way to solve it.
Secondly, I don't know how the game will simulate the impact of economic development on the terrain, such as large-scale drainage of swamps for farming, large-scale deforestation, etc. Will this lead to changes in local terrain settings?

 

[Mr Jangoon]

There are two aspects. First, we cannot change the border shape of the province during the game. This may be a limitation of the game engine, and there is basically no way to solve it.
Secondly, I don't know how the game will simulate the impact of economic development on the terrain, such as large-scale drainage of swamps for farming, large-scale deforestation, etc. Will this lead to changes in local terrain settings?

This can be solved by rearranging FEW states

 

[TheHostName]

If the map is the same as in the Leak, then there are mistakes in Germany. Like where Lippe is and where the city of Bielefeld is (not on the right side of the river Weser)
Stuff like that. Otherwise. very much happy.

 

[Mr Jangoon]

If the map is the same as in the Leak, then there are mistakes in Germany. Like where Lippe is and where the city of Bielefeld is (not on the right side of the river Weser)
Stuff like that. Otherwise. very much happy.

I generally find germany too low-poly. I don't mean there should be 200+ microstates, but atleast visually that chaos should be visible, we all love german bordergore, thats why GFM and TGC are so popular

 

[ThatCatalanGuy]

The Spanish people in this forum (myself included) have already voiced their issues with the map for months at this point, with a few threads out there discussing them at great length. Still, I will gladly summarize those that I can remember off the top of my head:

• The peninsular state-region setup has some weird clumpings of geographical areas that historically were never clumped together in the minds of any Spanish geographer – or any Spaniard's, for that matter – such as Murcia and Valencia, or Galicia and Asturias, or Euskadi+Navarra and Rioja (maybe together with Aragon, but I can't remember if they changed that) which I understand might have been merged for the sake of balancing Spain's industrial capacity, but have been done so in a way that should look off to anyone with a basic knowledge of Spanish history.
• Of the two cities that Spain held sovereignty over in north Africa, they decided to have only one in the map and go with the less strategically important of the two (Melilla) for reasons unknown to me. Kind of ironic for a grand strategy game...
• The overseas territories of Spain have no business in being separate tags, as historically they were not given any kind of autonomy during the 19th century, neither legal nor de-facto. The only case where I'd imagine it may remotely make any sense to have them this way is if someone wanted to roleplay the struggle for secession of these colonies. But as of the writing of this comment, I honestly doubt the in-game content has yet been tailored for the particular dynamics of the Cuban and Philippine wars of independence, or for their post-independence politics. I hope that I can be proven wrong at some point, but that's not my perception at this moment.
• But perhaps the most egregious issue is the fact that there's no immediately visible sign of the Carlist Wars being represented in any way. For a conflict that tore the nation's countryside apart and which kept the Spanish army busy for decades, it sure looks peaceful in Spain at game-start. No open rebellion, no unrest or turmoil in the historically affected regions – at least that I've heard of, might have been corrected but I honestly have no idea – or any mention of the Carlist movement at all... it's pretty jarring, especially since this is no minor aspect of our history in the 19th century and should definitely be represented in some way, if at least in some token form that could be expanded upon when the mechanics of the game get improved over time.

 

[Arbus]

Lisbon being south of the Tagus river.

 

[Mr Jangoon]

Lisbon being south of the Tagus river.

Also, I remember there were some issues with cities in Netherlands having a similar problem, and entire lake was just discarded

 

[Arbus]

Also, I remember there were some issues with cities in Netherlands having a similar problem, and entire lake was just discarded

It’s a minor thing but if you know the country it just feels really off. It’s like placing Istanbul in Asia.

 

[759578590]

The Spanish people in this forum (myself included) have already voiced their issues with the map for months at this point, with a few threads out there discussing them at great length. Still, I will gladly summarize those that I can remember off the top of my head:

• The peninsular state-region setup has some weird clumpings of geographical areas that historically were never clumped together in the minds of any Spanish geographer – or any Spaniard's, for that matter – such as Murcia and Valencia, or Galicia and Asturias, or Euskadi+Navarra and Rioja (maybe together with Aragon, but I can't remember if they changed that) which I understand might have been merged for the sake of balancing Spain's industrial capacity, but have been done so in a way that should look off to anyone with a basic knowledge of Spanish history.
• Of the two cities that Spain held sovereignty over in north Africa, they decided to have only one in the map and go with the less strategically important of the two (Melilla) for reasons unknown to me. Kind of ironic for a grand strategy game...
• The overseas territories of Spain have no business in being separate tags, as historically they were not given any kind of autonomy during the 19th century, neither legal nor de-facto. The only case where I'd imagine it may remotely make any sense to have them this way is if someone wanted to roleplay the struggle for secession of these colonies. But as of the writing of this comment, I honestly doubt the in-game content has yet been tailored for the particular dynamics of the Cuban and Philippine wars of independence, or for their post-independence politics. I hope that I can be proven wrong at some point, but that's not my perception at this moment.
• But perhaps the most egregious issue is the fact that there's no immediately visible sign of the Carlist Wars being represented in any way. For a conflict that tore the nation's countryside apart and which kept the Spanish army busy for decades, it sure looks peaceful in Spain at game-start. No open rebellion, no unrest or turmoil in the historically affected regions – at least that I've heard of, might have been corrected but I honestly have no idea – or any mention of the Carlist movement at all... it's pretty jarring, especially since this is no minor aspect of our history in the 19th century and should definitely be represented in some way, if at least in some token form that could be expanded upon when the mechanics of the game get improved over time.

In fact, there is a key game mechanics limitation that results in Cuba having to become a subject. That is the law. Judging from the slavery development diary, the law at the start of Spain prohibits slavery, but Cuba allows the slave trade.
I'm guessing that other colonial countries had to do this for similar reasons. Because of the current game mechanics logic, each country must implement the same set of laws nationwide. And if the situation of the colony is completely different from that of the mainland, it has to be a subject state.

 

[Steigleder]

The Spanish people in this forum (myself included) have already voiced their issues with the map for months at this point, with a few threads out there discussing them at great length. Still, I will gladly summarize those that I can remember off the top of my head:

• The peninsular state-region setup has some weird clumpings of geographical areas that historically were never clumped together in the minds of any Spanish geographer – or any Spaniard's, for that matter – such as Murcia and Valencia, or Galicia and Asturias, or Euskadi+Navarra and Rioja (maybe together with Aragon, but I can't remember if they changed that) which I understand might have been merged for the sake of balancing Spain's industrial capacity, but have been done so in a way that should look off to anyone with a basic knowledge of Spanish history.
• Of the two cities that Spain held sovereignty over in north Africa, they decided to have only one in the map and go with the less strategically important of the two (Melilla) for reasons unknown to me. Kind of ironic for a grand strategy game...
• The overseas territories of Spain have no business in being separate tags, as historically they were not given any kind of autonomy during the 19th century, neither legal nor de-facto. The only case where I'd imagine it may remotely make any sense to have them this way is if someone wanted to roleplay the struggle for secession of these colonies. But as of the writing of this comment, I honestly doubt the in-game content has yet been tailored for the particular dynamics of the Cuban and Philippine wars of independence, or for their post-independence politics. I hope that I can be proven wrong at some point, but that's not my perception at this moment.
• But perhaps the most egregious issue is the fact that there's no immediately visible sign of the Carlist Wars being represented in any way. For a conflict that tore the nation's countryside apart and which kept the Spanish army busy for decades, it sure looks peaceful in Spain at game-start. No open rebellion, no unrest or turmoil in the historically affected regions – at least that I've heard of, might have been corrected but I honestly have no idea – or any mention of the Carlist movement at all... it's pretty jarring, especially since this is no minor aspect of our history in the 19th century and should definitely be represented in some way, if at least in some token form that could be expanded upon when the mechanics of the game get improved over time.

Oh my, they put two states in the same region? Outrageous, imagine not having the 50 US states as separate regions in game? Or at least 20 Brazilian Regions, or every Philippine Island as it's own region, that is just unacceptable

 

[ThatCatalanGuy]

In fact, there is a key game mechanics limitation that results in Cuba having to become a subject. That is the law. Judging from the slavery development diary, the law at the start of Spain prohibits slavery, but Cuba allows the slave trade.
I'm guessing that other colonial countries had to do this for similar reasons. Because of the current game mechanics logic, each country must implement the same set of laws nationwide. And if the situation of the colony is completely different from that of the mainland, it has to be a subject state.

I've seen that horse getting beaten to death and I still never got it.

For one, the Legacy Slavery law is a thing, which allows regions of an otherwise slave-free country to keep its slaves until full emancipation is legally established; and furthermore, the influx of slaves into Cuba greatly diminished during the first half of the 19th century, so it's kind of pointless to represent an economic reality that was already on its way out by the start of the game's time period.

And finally, that whole logic makes no sense for the Philippines, so I'm not sure what the rationale might be in that case.

 

[ThatCatalanGuy]

Oh my, they put two states in the same region? Outrageous, imagine not having the 50 US states as separate regions in game? Or at least 20 Brazilian Regions, or every Philippine Island as it's own region, that is just unacceptable

Look, I haven't argued that every historical Spanish region should be its own state, I do understand that this is a ridiculous demand. I'm only saying that the groupings I've seen so far could be made somewhat better adjusted to the social and political realities of the the time period.

An example of what I'm speaking about would be something like grouping the far north of England with the Scotish Lowlands for the only reason that they need less state-regions in Great Britain, and these two happen to be next to each other. You can bet that the devs would get stabbed to death if they tried to make this argument with an actual Scotsman.

 

[Steigleder]

Look, I haven't argued that every historical Spanish region should be its own state, I do understand that this is a ridiculous demand. I'm only saying that the groupings I've seen so far could be made somewhat better adjusted to the social and political realities of the the time period.

An example of what I'm speaking about would be something like grouping the far north of England with the Scotish Lowlands for the only reason that they need less state-regions in Great Britain, and these two happen to be next to each other.

I mean, it's better than grouping it with London, in Vic2 regions were mostly so you couldn't get too many factories, in Vic3 I assume that is to give them a meaningful enough population to be relevant in diplomatic play, perhaps rebellions

 

[759578590]

I've seen that horse getting beaten to death and I still never got it.

For one, the Legacy Slavery law is a thing, which allows regions of an otherwise slave-free country to keep it's slaves until full emancipation is legally established; and furthermore, the influx of slaves into Cuba greatly diminished during the first half of the 19th century, so it's kind of pointless to represent an economic reality that was already on its way out by the start of the game's time period.

And finally, that whole logic makes no sense for the Philippines, so I'm not sure what the rationale might be in that case.

After all, the game hasn't launched, so I'm just guessing based on the information I already have. Perhaps a better approach is to wait for the game to release, select the Philippines on the map to play, and double-check what's going on here.

Another problem is that it seems that the release version of the vassal mechanic is only a minimal runnable version. Situations like this one will be improved in a major expansion pack. You know, this is a paradox game.

 

[YashaCarry]

My main gripe with the map is that Tonga is decentralized and it owns Samoa, which it hasn’t since the 1350’s, nearly 500 years before the start date of Victoria 3.

 

[ThatCatalanGuy]

I mean, it's better than grouping it with London, in Vic2 regions were mostly so you couldn't get too many factories, in Vic3 I assume that is to give them a meaningful enough population to be relevant in diplomatic play, perhaps rebellions

Yeah, you have a point, and again that's why I wasn't arguing for a total splitting of the regions in Spain.

You can see the arguably better alternatives we discussed in one of the threads about Spanish geography.