• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

BaronNoir

Field Marshal
75 Badges
Sep 25, 2003
4.561
2.919
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Hearts of Iron 4: Arms Against Tyranny
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
By ''positive'' example, I'm not sure of the English word, I merrely means a text describing a Roman acting like the austere Old Roman they are supposed to be and not lamentations on how X,Y or Z princeps is not a Old Roman but a degenerate who listen to flute concerts or have robes with too much trimmings

(An example, but a dubious one, would be Cato the Younger as depicted by Plutarch : but the entire narrative is that he is an exception)
 
Last edited:
Part of the problem is that these criticisms (and they're not unique to Romans, every culture has them) are inherently designed to criticize modern folks as being weak/soft. They are the ancient equivalent to folks complaining about "kids today, with their obnoxious music and scandalous dress." They are contrasting a mythical golden age with the present.

You see similar things with e.g. Sparta, where literally every source we have on them from every era agrees that "modern" Spartans have degenerated from the ideal, gone soft and been seduced by money, whereas Spartans of a couple generations before whenever the writer is writing were "true" Spartans who scorned degenerate things.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus is a semi-legendary figure, the archetypal upstanding Roman of the past who, after becoming dictator and saving the Republic in 458 BCE, reigned his office and returned to his farm. At least if Livy is to be believed.

Cato the Elder (or the Censor) is the closest well attested historical figure we have. He was legendary in his own lifetime for his austerity and hard work, as well as service to the Roman state (reaching the rank of censor, generally the most senior rank available in the Republic). Cato was the elder statesmen of the reactionary conservative faction in Rome and argued vehemently against virtually all pleasures of the flesh as unmanly and un-Roman as well as opposing anything seen as Greek (such as philosophy and medicine). Most later authors of the 'unmanly degenerate' style of political polemic in the later Roman period looked to him as model.
 
Cinncinatus.

Rome summons him from his farm, he defeats Rome's enemies, celebrates a Triumph, ends the emergency, then goes back to his farm.

A true Roman.
 
I would mention a much lesser known hero from Plutarch and Livy, who was so famous that he made it into Dante's Divine Comedy (although he's much less well known these days). Gaius Fabricius, a Roman commander and envoy during the Eporiote invasion of Rome.

The personal doctor of Pyrrhus tells the visiting Roman envoy that he'll poison Pyrrhus for a bribe, thus ending the invasion without any more battle. Our hero finds this sort of victory dishonorable, so he tells Pyrrhus, who has his doctor killed and offers Fabricius to become his companion and second in command as a reward. Our true Roman hero says that he must refuse, because if he accepted, he would so outshine Pyrrhus, that his soldiers would soon insist Fabricius become King instead.

True story...