What would prevent Chinese emperors from expanding into Japan or Korea?

[Vityviktor]

And viceversa. I'd like to think there are some kind of limitations in East Asia to prevent situations like these, and if so, make them absolutely exceptional (Yuan invasion of Japan).

On the other hand, we see Christian realms expanding all over Northern Africa is not particularly weird either, so these limitations could maybe apply to Europe and North Africa.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Them already paying tribute?

 

[PAnZuRiEL]

Superior Japanese steel folded over one million times.

 

[Videogames]

China is in an Unstable era heading towards Chaotic in 867, and in an Advancement era in 1066 and 1178 with limited aggressive CBs and powerful nomad neighbors. I think things will mostly be ok, with the AI only occasionally maneuvering China into a stable Expansion era and gobbling up neighbors.

 

[NarcomancerPL]

Honestly I'm scared China will become on release Byzantium dominating half of the world

 

[apollo1989vieten]

And viceversa. I'd like to think there are some kind of limitations in East Asia to prevent situations like these, and if so, make them absolutely exceptional (Yuan invasion of Japan).

On the other hand, we see Christian realms expanding all over Northern Africa is not particularly weird either, so these limitations could maybe apply to Europe and North Africa.

There were historical invasions and conquest of North African territory by Norman Catholics and crusades. But for China, I don’t think there was much desire to conquer Korea. In 867, the Tang were crumbling. 1066, the Song are close to losing the north. The Yuan had a different mindset. They were interested in directly controlling everything, while Chinese dynasties were more content with tributary relationships. Tibet, Vietnamese states, and pacifying the steppe were main external wars that I am aware of a pre modern united China undertook.

 

[Videogames]

There were historical invasions and conquest of North African territory by Norman Catholics and crusades. But for China, I don’t think there was much desire to conquer Korea. In 867, the Tang were crumbling. 1066, the Song are close to losing the north. The Yuan had a different mindset. They were interested in directly controlling everything, while Chinese dynasties were more content with tributary relationships. Tibet, Vietnamese states, and pacifying the steppe were main external wars that I am aware of a pre modern united China undertook.

China did invade Goguryeo twice in the 7th century and reasonably could try invading Korea again under the right circumstances during the game's timeframe.

 

[CrazyRat]

China did invade Goguryeo twice in the 7th century and reasonably could try invading Korea again under the right circumstances during the game's timeframe.

I mean, they certainly could – but as far I am aware Korean terrain lends itself rather well for the guerilla warfare, and Koreans utilized it rather extensively while confronting enemies with more military potential. Overall, it would probably be a somewhat risky undertaking rather than all but guaranteed victory.

Whereas CK3 doesn’t really model any sort of asymmetric tactics, defensive preparations, or desperate measures that you can employ to turn the tide against the stronger foe. It doesn't model the cost of the failed invasion - that mean you cannot always just start an invasion in 10 years - either. That, however, is generally a problem with CK3 warfare rather than specific to China’s neighbours.

 

[Vityviktor]

There were historical invasions and conquest of North African territory by Norman Catholics and crusades.

Yeah, but those conquests were limited and they had so much issues trying to defend them. In the game it's usually the opposite, carving out great extensions of terrain.

Whereas CK3 doesn’t really model any sort of asymmetric tactics, defensive preparations, or desperate measures that you can employ to turn the tide against the stronger foe. It doesn't model the cost of the failed invasion - that mean you cannot always just start an invasion in 10 years - either. That, however, is generally a problem with CK3 warfare rather than specific to China’s neighbours

Completely agree, and this is related to the previous quote. Control, for instance, is an underutilized mechanic. It could be used to represent situations in which a place is technically conquered by an invading force but they actually don't hold any power there, because it's too far away from the center of power, because the local people and elites are actively opposing them, etc.

And there's the issue with the eventual rework of warfare that should probably happen sooner or later.

 

[Pvt.0120]

The answer is very simple. It's not worthy of it. Why did UK withdraw from India? It's not worthy of it. After Gandhi‘s nonviolence campaign decreased the profitability of UK, colonizing India was not a wise choice anymore. So UK quitted. It's same with that that When the tax income and strategic worth of one area is less than the military expense China would like to adopt another method to discipline this area rather than govern it directly. Look at the map and you'll see. China had occupied the best part of East Asia leaving the rest of deserts, mountains, jungles etc.. Actually the tribute system of celestial empire is not about the tribute but the diplomacy. It's a substitute of the Westphalia system or more like a membership of civilization. The emperor is like the pope. He could excommunicate someone. And same as the excommunication, the tribute system wasn't very useful most of time.
There's a kind of so called defensive invasion which you might not believe, but it's reasonable. Some rulers believed that he must control an area in order to defend another area. For example, Tang China must control Middle Asia to defend Hexi Corridor.
There's another kind of invasion aiming to eliminate threats. Sui China made a great effort to conquer Goguryeo (not Goryeo) but didn't make it. Tang China had to continue this war and took twenty five years to defeat Goguryeo. It's like that Rome defeated Carthage. The difference is that China didn't care much about the land of Goguryeo. Another example, China would send the cavalry to burn the steppe every year in case steppe tribes get powerful enough to invade China.

China did invade Goguryeo twice in the 7th century and reasonably could try invading Korea again under the right circumstances during the game's timeframe.

That's not true. Korea was one of the fifteen nations to which Ming China would not send military forces. It's a written policy made by Ming's first emperor. As I said above, it's not worthy of it. Goguryeo is different. It's a big threat which must disappear.

And viceversa. I'd like to think there are some kind of limitations in East Asia to prevent situations like these, and if so, make them absolutely exceptional (Yuan invasion of Japan).

On the other hand, we see Christian realms expanding all over Northern Africa is not particularly weird either, so these limitations could maybe apply to Europe and North Africa.

Europe used the enfeoffment system. Not only the King but also nobles had troops. They conquered a place, made them a king and ruled this place in person. But China used the centralization system. Emperors need to take account of tax incomes and military expenses.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

That's not true. Korea was one of the fifteen nations to which Ming China would not send military forces. It's a written policy made by Ming's first emperor. As I said above, it's not worthy of it. Goguryeo is different. It's a big threat which must disappear.

Ming China was not the same as Tang China. The geopolitical goals of the two different dynasties were different. It is thought that the fall of the Ming was a product of them sending help to Korea against the forces of Japan.

I also don't think we can use post WW2 examples and necessarily project them backwards. WW2 financially ruined Britain, but empires in the past didn't just pull out because of debt. There were circumstances beyond just Gandhi's protest and financial ruin. Public support wasn't there to keep the empire together. And the US and Soviet Union were the new superpowers and deeply disapproved of the colonial empires. In the past, public support didn't really matter than much in so far as potential military uprisings could convince empires to pull out.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Ideally there should be a system where the AI is not interested in conquering Tributaries; since Korea would typically be a Tributary, it should be safe from China's attentions.

Also ideally in every start date Song really should be on the back foot. For 1066 China and Liao are pretty evenly matched(there is also a peace treaty between them, and ideally the Chinese should not have a naval-invade CB like the Byzantines do, so they wouldn't even have a border with Korea to invade from). In 1178 the Song are even worse off.

 

[Ttrgw]

I don't know if it can be done, but I think we need a system that dramatically increases the cost of military operations far from the court. The game needs a situation that makes people think that they would rather deal with the local rulers properly than send troops to conquer them at huge cost.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Ideally there should be a system where the AI is not interested in conquering Tributaries; since Korea would typically be a Tributary, it should be safe from China's attentions.

Also ideally in every start date Song really should be on the back foot. For 1066 China and Liao are pretty evenly matched(there is also a peace treaty between them, and ideally the Chinese should not have a naval-invade CB like the Byzantines do, so they wouldn't even have a border with Korea to invade from). In 1178 the Song are even worse off.

You have to release tributaries to declare war atm no? But there will be the issue with once the start game dynasty ends, and you now have a giant unified china with non tributary neighbours, which going off the byz, means mega blobbing

 

[tribnia]

A way to reduce blob could be making tributary more common. Whenever an independence faction or populist faction decides to send ultimatum, there should be options to make them tributaries.

 

[EricArthur]

Why should a stable China not be able to do this? If they stop paying tribute? The game is only historical from the start date onwards. If China recovers and becomes stable to the extent it makes sense to expand, why shouldn't it?

Japan is an issue. It's really hard to plan a naval invasion of Japan with the tech available during CK3's timeframe. Nobody really had ocean-faring vessels at the time. Norsemen didn't "cross the Atlantic" - they hopped coasts and ended up there. Japan never developed an ocean-faring ship until the Portuguese arrived, barely making use of sails, and China did for trade and exploration but not to the extent of moving entire armies across the Sea of Japan which you would need to properly invade the place. The Mongols tried twice and failed twice. That "divine wind" was not some extremely exceptional weather event but rather something which just happens on the open sea. It is not comparable to shipping troops from Marseilles to Tangiers across the relatively calm Mediterranean.

I would be fine with completely disallowing it or otherwise applying an extremely severe "ocean penalty".

 

[Tom The Viking YT]

I have read so many good suggestions here but in reality the answer is much, much simpler - a line of code.

 

[Zifircin]

If in expansionist era yes probably you can conquer half the map. Otherwise I think you will mainly be within the struggle region is what they said.

Maybe the fact you can assign a limited number of kingdom tier military or protectorate administration will somewhat incentivize using tributaries instead. So you conquer about 5 kingdoms worth directly and the rest can be tributaries (since they get passed down now if youre a hegemony).

If you simply use standard administration for new lands they wont have title maa and if we have a mechanic similar to attacking border duchies for byzantium where the attacker gets 3x war score it could be somewhat bothersome to defend. With protectorate administration you won't even have to be at war yourself (unless you need to) since they mentioned it's possible vassals of a hegemony be at war without the top liege now.

In any case I think it will mainly be about internal management where you're constantly trying to avoid any triggers to progress out of expansion era and dissolve the hegemony title and then you will be fine with conquering everything.

 

[Koronus]

Honestly I'm scared China will become on release Byzantium dominating half of the world

I wish the Eastern Romans would do this in my games. In 1066 it is a coinflip meanwhile in 1178 both Roman Empires always get dominated from Conqueror Salah-Al Din in Eagypt. Though now I wonder why Saladin starts with Conqueror. William the Norman, also called Willam the Conqueror do not get the Conqueror Trait?

 

[Pvt.0120]

Ming China was not the same as Tang China. The geopolitical goals of the two different dynasties were different. It is thought that the fall of the Ming was a product of them sending help to Korea against the forces of Japan.

I also don't think we can use post WW2 examples and necessarily project them backwards. WW2 financially ruined Britain, but empires in the past didn't just pull out because of debt. There were circumstances beyond just Gandhi's protest and financial ruin. Public support wasn't there to keep the empire together. And the US and Soviet Union were the new superpowers and deeply disapproved of the colonial empires. In the past, public support didn't really matter than much in so far as potential military uprisings could convince empires to pull out.

Your words are against you. Don't you see? The fall of Ming China is due to a lot of reasons, and three military campaigns including the battle of Korea taking place around 1600 is an important one. The battle of Korea consumed 400 tons of silver and damaged Ming China's finance seriously.
As I said before, medieval Europe used the enfeoffment system whilst China used the centralization system. They're not comparable. On the contrary, you can compare China to any centralized empire whether it's before WWII or not, like Rome.
Empires didn't pull out because of debts? You don't know a thing about management, right? If UK was rich, it's powerful. If it's powerful, it wouldn't give a damn about USA and CCCP. If a profitable area wanted to get independent before, UK would send its gunboats. Emperors only count incomes and expenses.