When/how did Pomerianian go from being Slavic to German?

[Palatinus Germanicus]

Getting ready to start watching the series Ekaterina on Amazon Prime, about Catherine the Great. I'm going to be watching with my family, and it's going to be my job to explain as much as I can. I'm not some expert, but I know a few things. -Like I'll mention how Frederick the Great's lucky @$$ got saved from certain doom & destruction, thanks to the sudden death of the Tsarina... and her successor was a total fanboy.

But one thing I've been wondering about, is the apparent Pomeranian culture shift. So, of course everyone knows Catherine is this 'German' Princess, who came to rule Russia (by brutally betraying her husband, the Tsar). But I'm thinkin', in the back of my head... you know, you don't have to go back that far & Pomeranian was Slavic culture (and religion).

It was one of the last areas (which we now think of as 'German') to be added to the HRE. So I'm just wondering, how German was this 'German' princess, or is there a bit more to the story? I don't know Catherine's bloodline... maybe she was totally German. -But what about the Pomeranians, in general?

I have this notion that maybe the Russians accepted her, in part, because deep in the back of their minds Pomeranian was really just a hijacked culture of their own Slavic peoples. But, maybe I'm reaching for something that isn't there...

 

[Robmel]

Rulling class of all German colonial lands east of Elba river was German (Saxon, Franconian, Thuringian). The names of duchies as political units carried previous conquered non-Germanic tribal names, which were essentially nothing more than just geographical meanings - Pomerania, Silesia, Prussia, Livonia, Curonia. Sometimes they didn't - Brandenburg, Mecklenburg.

Previous Slavic Pomerianian culture was demoted to peasantry level and assimilated to German over several centuries.

 

[JodelDiplom]

Rulling class of all German colonial lands east of Elba river was German (Saxon, Franconian, Thuringian). The names of duchies as political units carried previous conquered non-Germanic tribal names, which were essentially nothing more than just geographical meanings - Pomerania, Silesia, Prussia, Livonia, Curonia. Sometimes they didn't - Brandenburg, Mecklenburg.

Not true. At least not all of them.

Look up the ruling families of Mecklenburg and Pommern (before Hohenzollern inheritance) on Wikipedia. They were Slavic aristocrats who germanized at some point in the middle ages.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Griffins
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Mecklenburg

 

[Caspoi]

Even if the Russians were aware of the pre-German history of Pommerania I honestly doubt that they cared, this was before pan-Slavism was a big thing after all and even if the Pommeranians were once Slavic they were not Orthodox, nor were they particularly close to the Russians in terms of culture or language. The region had also been rather thuroughly Germanized at this point for a while so I doubt that the Russians, even those that knew of itse ancestry, thought of it as anything but German.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

We even have a Slavic minority in Germany but they are largely indistinguishable form Germans imo.

 

[Mder1]

We even have a Slavic minority in Germany but they are largely indistinguishable form Germans imo.

The Sorbs still try to keep a distinguished different culture alive. Population is less than 60.000 now though.

 

[EU3NOOB]

The Sorbs still try to keep a distinguished different culture alive. Population is less than 60.000 now though.

How was that number before the rise of the Nazis and WWII?

 

[Klausewitz]

How was that number before the rise of the Nazis and WWII?

The Sorbs were not targeted by the Nazis.
They were filed under 'Wendish' as some proto-semi-Saxon pagan Aryans.

 

[Eusebio]

The Sorbs were not targeted by the Nazis.
They were filed under 'Wendish' as some proto-semi-Saxon pagan Aryans.

I know it's the Nazis, but man that's illogical/stupid.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Catherina was 'totally' German, her father was stationed in Stettin in Pommerania, as military commander of that town. That is her link to Pommerania.

 

[trybald]

It was once held that the ruling classes assimilated almost overnight, but recent research show that it was not the case. Overall, there were four Slavic dynasties that had holdings in the broader Pomerania region.

- Niklotids, or the House of Mecklemburg. They were the westernmost dynasty and ruled the eponymous country of Mecklemburg. Their land was brought into Saxon heel by the Wendish Crusade of 1147, a war which bordered on genocide. The country was therefore devastated and depopulated, and local Slavic nobility was especially decimated in the process. It is generally thought that they switched their language into German in early 13th century, and it is deduced by the rapid disappearance of Slavic personal names and indigenous institutions and their replacement by imports from Germany. Nevertheless, Slavic language held in some pockets among the peasantry well into 18th century.

- Wizlawids, or the House of Rugen. Extinct in early 14th century, they apparently retained Slavic language until the very end, as evidenced by the productive use of Slavic personal names (i.e. usage of new Slavic names, as opposed to merely ancestral names). Nevertheless, their land was very quick to adopt Lower German language, in large part due to very peaceful relationships between indigenous Slavs and. According to Pomeranian chronicle, the last person from Rugen who knew the Wendish language died in early 15th century.

- Griffins, or the House of Pomerania. They apparently knew Slavic language well into 16th century, since they were recorded as meeting and talking with Polish rulers without interpreters. Nevertheless, it is from Pomerania that the most records about discrimination of Slavs come from. In order to attract settlers, the dukes granted extensive privileges which essentially made Germans the upper class of the society, with Slavs being largely sidelined and restricted from various trades. Slavs therefore had a lot of incentive to adopt German language and identity, which led to a language shift starting with initial pulse around Stettin/Szczecin and then extending in all directions. However what dealt the death blow was the Protestand Reformation, which was combined with the introduction of German as the language of religious service. By early 19th century Slavic language in Pomerania proper was restricted to easternmost part (around Stolpe/Slupsk) and isolated fishing communities on the Baltic islands of Usedom and Wollin. They were largely assimilated by the end of the century, with only about 50 thousand of Slavic speakers recorded as living in easternmost Pomerania by 1920s.

- Samborides, or the House of Pomerelia. Most closely aligned with Poland, they accepted few German settlers until their extinction in 1290s. Afterwards their lands were subjected to a conflict between Poland and Teutonic Order, with Poland eventually gaining the upper hand. This most likely prevented and to some extent reversed the extent of assimilation of the land into the German culture. Consequently, Pomerelia was the only part of Pomerania in which Slavic language remained predominant until WW2.

 

[Klausewitz]

I know it's the Nazis, but man that's illogical/stupid.

I can do you one better:
By toiling on Aryan soil long enough people can get 'aryanized'.
Grab a Jewish family and let them toil on the soil for centuries and *bang* aryanized.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

I can do you one better:
By toiling on Aryan soil long enough people can get 'aryanized'.
Grab a Jewish family and let them toil on the soil for centuries and *bang* aryanized.

Arent Slavs and Jews apples and oranges for Nazi purposes ? The first some kind of ape human and the second the force of evil destroying humanity ?

 

[trybald]

What is interesting is that one of the very last Wendish outposts in Germany was coincidentally the westernmost. I mean the inhabitants of Wendland in modern Lower Saxony. The language was still alive in the middle of the 18th century and some phrases and words survived well into 19th century.

It is believed that two factors allowed the Slavs to survive there for so long. First, the region was largely isolated by hills and forests and the soils are poor, which greatly reduced immigration. Secondly and imho more importantly, Wendland did not participate in the Great Slav Rising of 983, during which Slavs of modern Holstein and Mecklemburg threw off Saxon yoke for about 150 years. This meant that Wendland was spared the devastation of the Wendish Crusade of 1147.

 

[trybald]

Arent Slavs and Jews apples and oranges for Nazi purposes ? The first some kind of ape human and the second the force of evil destroying humanity ?

I don't think that Slavs were considered as "evil" in Nazi ideology. Slavs were something more of mindless proles who did well only under the rule of their Germanic masters.

Slavs weren't to be killed because they plotted against the Germans like the Jews. Slavs were simply living on the territory that Germany wanted to settle with Germans. Killing Slavs was more like culling unneeded livestock.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

I don't think that Slavs were considered as "evil" in Nazi ideology.

Thats what I said.

 

[trybald]

Thats what I said.

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

No worries.

 

[Klausewitz]

It depends who your go-to race guy is.
The bit about 'aufnorden' through working the field is this guy:

Walther Darré, Reichsbauernführer

For him there was an interplay between Race and (working the ) soil, hence the title of one of his books "Blut und Boden" (english: Blood and Soil, yes that's where that comes from).
As for the Jews depending on who you pick they are either racially inferior, racially equal but evil, racially superior but evil, racially equal but misguided (basically: While the Aryan has kept contact with the soil the Jews have been corrupted by their soil-less-ness but could be uncorrupted by working said soil) and a whole host of other considerations.
It is important to note that there was no one Nazi-Rassenlehre, no definite Nazi teachings on race.
Darré had different ideas from Himmler, who had different ideas from Hitler. The Phrenology crowd had their own ideas so had the 'Ahnenerbe' though they were technically Himmlers guys, etc.
What there was was a jungle racial theories and theorems all coexist depending on the ability of their advocates to push them.
As for the Slavs, whether they are 'ape humans' depends, again, a lot on what branch of race theory you adhere to, so you get everything from 'ape human' to basically racially equal but damaged (either by jews or insufficient contact with the soil).
Again, it varies.

 

[krieger11b]

It depends who your go-to race guy is.
The bit about 'aufnorden' through working the field is this guy:

Walther Darré, Reichsbauernführer

For him there was an interplay between Race and (working the ) soil, hence the title of one of his books "Blut und Boden" (english: Blood and Soil, yes that's where that comes from).
As for the Jews depending on who you pick they are either racially inferior, racially equal but evil, racially superior but evil, racially equal but misguided (basically: While the Aryan has kept contact with the soil the Jews have been corrupted by their soil-less-ness but could be uncorrupted by working said soil) and a whole host of other considerations.
It is important to note that there was no one Nazi-Rassenlehre, no definite Nazi teachings on race.
Darré had different ideas from Himmler, who had different ideas from Hitler. The Phrenology crowd had their own ideas so had the 'Ahnenerbe' though they were technically Himmlers guys, etc.
What there was was a jungle racial theories and theorems all coexist depending on the ability of their advocates to push them.
As for the Slavs, whether they are 'ape humans' depends, again, a lot on what branch of race theory you adhere to, so you get everything from 'ape human' to basically racially equal but damaged (either by jews or insufficient contact with the soil).
Again, it varies.

Echo chambers make for some strange views/opinions. Since Nazi's didn't argued against Germans > Slavs in general, you could get into some pretty specific nonsense, especially with copious amounts of rectal mining and pseudoscience.