Why aren't Mech factories hardened more?

[Lyrch75]

Once the Lore gets past the First Succession War, we still read of the factories being destroyed. This has never made sense to me, as the strategic and economic value of those plants should have any even remotely competent government hardening and protecting them at , nearly, all costs.

Multilayered fixed positions with anti-air, anti-shipping, and and anti-ground turrets with at least a regiment on patrol* to protect the place.

* with the added benefit of using those guard forces as final shakedown before shipping the Mechs.

/rant off

 

[wundergoat]

Hesperus is incredibly hardened, while other surviving ones are well defended. The ebook Hector is about the Wolf’s Dragoons attempt to take the DefHes factory complex. 5 elite regiments didnt even get close.

We don’t know a whole lot about the factories destroyed in the first two SWs but I would suspect they were hit with WMDs and/or orbital bombardment. It’s hard for factories to survive carpet nuking.

 

[Alias72]

Hesperus is incredibly hardened, while other surviving ones are well defended. The ebook Hector is about the Wolf’s Dragoons attempt to take the DefHes factory complex. 5 elite regiments didnt even get close.

We don’t know a whole lot about the factories destroyed in the first two SWs but I would suspect they were hit with WMDs and/or orbital bombardment. It’s hard for factories to survive carpet nuking.

Haven't read much of the lore but it is also possible that the factories weren't as hardened in the first succession wars when the technology used in their manufacture was more ubiquitous.

 

[kbs666]

The First Succession War was nasty. The Ares Convention had been renounced. Every successor state had multiple warships. They really thought nothing of nuking anything they couldn't conquer.

The Second Succession War was not nearly as wantonly destructive, each state was down to a handful of warships which limited their ability to devastate planets and would lose the last of those during or shortly after the war. By this point the major Battlemech factories were massively defended. Hesperus II, home of Defiance Industries, saw a campaign referred to as the Sixth, seventh and Eight battles of Hesperus II where the Combine tried to capture/destroy the facility. The battle involved multiple regiments of mechs and both sides last warship, both of which were lost.

By the end of the Second War the few remaining major factories were deep inside each state and were incredibly well defended. There were of course many small facilities producing a handful of mechs a year but those were far too precious as prizes to risk destroying so no one would attack one directly.

 

[Fusilier01]

The reason why most factories are destroyed has to do with the decline in technology up to 3025. The 2nd Succession War was the most destructive, with most warships destroyed and the first functional warship seen in centuries (other than Comstars hidden fleets) appears with the arrival of the clans in 3050.

The centuries of bloody warfare has left a few planets nearly uninhabitable and others barely with any advanced industry other than agriculture. Most fighting is reduced to raids or skirmishes. Battlemech production is just a trickle of just a few units each year across the whole Inner Sphere or parts salvaged at the after a battle.

Battlemechs are typically owned by a noble family pledging fealty or Merc company working for a Successor State. The Successor States themselves own very few units themselves, but rather gain loyalty by repairing these units for their soldiers.

If I remember my lore, there is less than a dozen fully functional mech factories spread across the Inner Sphere and they are protected better than most other planets, but there is simply not enough units (other than cannon fodder infantry) to repell most attacks. The Inner Sphere itself is simply to tired and unable to wage any more serious wars barring the formation of Fed-Com Alliance and the arrival of the Clans.

 

[kbs666]

Not really. The great houses with the exception of the Capellans all can field at least dozens of battlemech regiments. Each House's military is predominantly the mechs they can still build or which they started with a large inventory of so Davion would be Enforcer, Dervish, Valkyrie and Centurion while Kurita would be Panther, Dragon and Jenner for instance.

The situation for others is far worse. Petty nobles, minor mercenaries and the periphery states, except for the Taurian Concordat, must generally make do with hand me down and patched together mechs.

 

[WhiteChapel]

Also, most mech factories are destroyed by sabotage/engineers. Either an attacker takes it, and blows it from within, or the defenders destroy it to prevent the enemy getting the resource. Most existing factories are either massive fortifications (Hesperus) or they are so far behind the lines they are safe (Corean Enterprise on New Avalon). The Earthwerks Incorporated factories on Tikonov were taken from the Liao in the 4th Succession War. Davion sent 8 Regimental Combat Teams (not 8 regiments, but 80+ regiments of combined arms) to take the planet from approximately 6 mech regiments and approximately 80 militia regiments. While Liao lost, they sabotaged 2/3 of the factory lines.

 

[wundergoat]

The IS production capability isn't all that bad in 3025. The FWL is making 500+ mechs/year out of 17 factories, and they are known for their focus on aerospace. I would not be surprised if the LC, DC, and FS exceed that rate of production.

And no, that isn't a retcon. Those numbers are from the 1988 Marik book.

 

[Alias72]

according to sarna.net

500 mechs a year...
4 mechs to a lance means 125 lances.
3 lances to a company means 42 companies.
3 companies to a battalion means 14 battalions
3 - 5 battalions to a regiment means 3 to 5 regiments.
or 1 regimental combat team.

that would be approximately one brigade. 1/3 of a division or 1/9 of a corps.

that is the military production for an entire succession state for a year. apparently the FWL consists of over 330 planets so that means that each planet gets between 1 and 2 mechs. The vast majority of those would be light mechs. sorry but that doesn't strike me as a good production figure. And its not like these mechs are 1000 ton superweapons. Regular forces can still destroy them.

 

[wundergoat]

according to sarna.net

500 mechs a year...
4 mechs to a lance means 125 lances.
3 lances to a company means 42 companies.
3 companies to a battalion means 14 battalions
3 - 5 battalions to a regiment means 3 to 5 regiments.
or 1 regimental combat team.

that would be approximately one brigade. 1/3 of a division or 1/9 of a corps.

that is the military production for an entire succession state for a year. apparently the FWL consists of over 330 planets so that means that each planet gets between 1 and 2 mechs. The vast majority of those would be light mechs. sorry but that doesn't strike me as a good production figure. And its not like these mechs are 1000 ton superweapons. Regular forces can still destroy them.

Mech production is ~30/40/25/5 L/M/H/A, and while 5 regiments doesn't seem a lot, the FWL only has 65 front line regiments. That is a production rate of ~8% of the total military force per year. Also, keep in mind that mechs do not age out quickly. A mech can be expected to be in service decades if not centuries. Furthermore, mechs are basically special forces units where vehicles and infantry do a lot of the off-screen heavy lifting. Most planets do not rate significant mech assets as a garrison.

Divisions and Corps (and Armies) were mostly used by the SLDF. The individual member states never had anywhere near the numbers of the SLDF. FWL is ~95 mech regiments in 2750, so only about 50% more than in 3025. The SLDF has something like 500 mech regiments in 2750.

You are right that the productions do not sound very high compared to what we would expect. Thank FASAnomics. Battletech militaries are hilariously small for the population and expected economic output, in the neighborhood of 1-2%. Factions like the Clans and WoB are the only ones where their military expenditure/GDP is close to actual real-world nations.

 

[kbs666]

The IS production capability isn't all that bad in 3025. The FWL is making 500+ mechs/year out of 17 factories, and they are known for their focus on aerospace. I would not be surprised if the LC, DC, and FS exceed that rate of production.

And no, that isn't a retcon. Those numbers are from the 1988 Marik book.

IIRC the FWL was supposed to be the largest empire and the largest producer of military equipment. The Lyran Commonwealth might be richer but it didn't spend as much on its military.

500 mechs is probably slightly more than 25% of the total production outside clan and Comstar space. Keep in mind that the Cappellans are supposed to be essentially without mech factories in 3025 and most of the Periphery states have no mech factories at all.

 

[wundergoat]

IIRC the FWL was supposed to be the largest empire and the largest producer of military equipment. The Lyran Commonwealth might be richer but it didn't spend as much on its military.

500 mechs is probably slightly more than 25% of the total production outside clan and Comstar space. Keep in mind that the Cappellans are supposed to be essentially without mech factories in 3025 and most of the Periphery states have no mech factories at all.

Its not. Per same 3025 manual, they were "never a leader in military production", several production lines are shut down due to lack of parts, and have trouble making assault mechs.

It is stated tht their mech component manufacturers are relatively strong and make high quality equipment.

The CapCon produces plenty of mechs. They still have Tikonov in 3025, one of the biggest mech production centers in the IS. They do lose most of it in the 4th SW.


Side note, I'm using the FWL as an example because their sourcebook has the most specific numbers.

 

[Alias72]

3025 mech production for FWL is 500 mechs a year. Lets assume they produce 90% of the average rate. That is an average of 560 per succession state and 2780 total IS excluding C*. this maintains a mech force of (FWL 65 regiments = 7020 mechs) (IS 361 regiments = 38,988 mechs). it can be assumed that mech salvage makes up a considerable portion of the total mech force replacement for a combat unit in 3025. 38988/2780 = 7.1% replacement excluding salvage. so how much does salvage contribute? lets assume it is an equivalent amount so 15 % replacement.

The SLDF has 500 regiments and we shall assume that each of the 6 houses had 100 regiments each at the very end of the star league. 1100 regiments. which is 118,800 mechs. at 15% replacement that means a total production of 17,820 mechs per year.

was 17,820
became 2,780
percentage of production capacity lost: 84.4%

this assumes that just as many mechs are recovered through salvage as through new production but I get the impression the actual amount is supposed to be much larger. Unfortunately it is not possible to estimate losses with the numbers I have as I don't know what the combat attrition rate would be in a late succession war environment.

 

[wundergoat]

You are having to make so many assumptions there that your estimate of SL production might as well be a guess.
1) FWL is 90% of successor state average
2) That the 7% production rate is a replacement rate and doesn't contribute as growth
3) Complete assumption of how much replacement is from salvage
4) That the SLDF has the same replacement rate as a SW state
5) That the SLDF did not use salvage to replace losses, and only uses factory fresh replacement

That said, your guess might not be far off. I was just saying that as a function of standing forces, the successor states are not in that bad a place. Standing forces are ~60% of the SL era and they have the production to replace pretty horrendous losses every year.

 

[Alias72]

I was just curious to see what the answer might be. I understand that this is an informed guess at best.
1) I think the 90% is a conservative guess that can be defended by the continued existence of the FWL. I doubt it would have survived if its production rate was too far behind the other successor states and as one poster commented their rate was "below average". I selected the umber to give the IS the most charitable production capacity possible.

2) The military strength of all the successor states was decimated by the first and second succession wars. whatever growth in military forces that takes place now is unlikely to vastly exceed the replacement rate because if it did then all successor states would be in a position to stockpile for another massive war. (and then there would be a war and the strength would go down again). This near constant cycle ensures that the rate overall will always be neutral because any advantage that can be gained will be immediately expended in the near constant warfare that plagues the year 3025. Also the 15% would be the replacement rate. All of that 7% is replacement because if it wasn't they wouldn't be salvaging hulks off of the battlefield.

3) I pulled that number from a place so deep only a proctologist could have found it. the only way to estimate this would be if I knew the production figures for every mech, the overall attrition rate, and the remaining quantity for every mech. I could then check which mechs are getting replaced at what rate and guesstimate the quantity that are recovered through salvage.

4) The SLDF would have had a smaller replacement rate as it existed in a state of peace however it would have also had reserve capacity because it is not at war. so ya. flip a coin. But I am more interested in destroyed capacity. unfortunately accurate modern information is difficult to find. I found 1 reference that current production of M1 is as much as 60 units with the potential to produce 28 a month (18% capacity in peacetime vs full capacity in war). but that means multiplying SLDF production rates by 5 and I am trying to be charitable to the successor states.

5) A military with a functioning military industrial complex tends to recycle instead of salvage. That is to say that when a vehicle is knocked out it is either repaired (which can be thought of as a reduction in the attrition rate) or recycled and replaced. Because the industrial capacity of all IS nations is radioactive trash they are forced to dig hulks off of forgotten battlefields in the hopes of maintaining strength. The key difference is that all SLDF replacements would come from a factory or not be lost where as successor states would have actual salvage.

TLDR:
90% is conservative but I think accurate
The successor states are only receiving adequate replacement
Salvage rate is fantasy
We have no idea what industrial mobilisation for the SLDF was.
The SLDF would have recycled and replaced instead of salvaged.

another point. The successor states are at 60% of the SLDF PEACETIME force. except all 5 successor states in in perpetual low scale conflict. that 60% is likely the bare minimum necessary to maintain law and order. If they had the production capacity to replace horrendous losses they wouldn't be salvaging hulks.

 

[kbs666]

The CapCon produces plenty of mechs. They still have Tikonov in 3025, one of the biggest mech production centers in the IS. They do lose most of it in the 4th SW.

CapCon does not produce plenty of mechs in 3025. They developed the Cataphract, based on spare parts from other mechs, to build at Tikinov because they weren't producing any heavies to speak of and the lore is that it is a lousy mech at first. Besides that the Capellans are known to be able to produce Stingers, Griffins, Shadow Hawks, Archers, Vindicators, Ravens, Firestarters, Marauders, Quickdraw and Phoenix Hawks and by all accounts limited quantities of all of them.

Sarna and the old CapCon books do not give any amounts for how much the Capellans are producing in 3025 but they do make clear they are already in dire straits before losing Tikonov and before the St. ives Compact gained independence. After...

 

[WhiteChapel]

A couple notes to consider.

1) The mech numbers, both production and existing forces is ridiculously low. That's the whole point of the 3025 era. Not just the tech dark ages, but the literal industrial exhaustion. The idea is this is the low ebb, where the Great Powers have pulled in their claws because they just don't have the ability to push forward or they risk complete collapse. That's why small forces and raids are the order of the day and not the full campaigns of 2nd or 4th Succession Wars.

2) Most planets do not have any House mech units assigned to them. Border worlds and strategic interior worlds have house units assigned but most interior worlds make do with militia which may or may not include mechs.

3) Don't forget there are a huge number of mech units deployed that do not show up on deployment tables. Small units like Carlyle's Commandos only have 2 lances worth of mechs but are seeded all over the Inner Sphere, especially on periphery borders. All those planetary militias and noble house guards that can scrape together a couple lances. Then there are the big ones, corporate security forces and the like. Defiance Industries has a heavy mech regiment of their own to defend Hesperus II. It's likely that most other large factories run their own as well, probably not as big but a couple companies worth.

 

[Alias72]

A couple notes to consider.
3) Don't forget there are a huge number of mech units deployed that do not show up on deployment tables. Small units like Carlyle's Commandos only have 2 lances worth of mechs but are seeded all over the Inner Sphere, especially on periphery borders. All those planetary militias and noble house guards that can scrape together a couple lances. Then there are the big ones, corporate security forces and the like. Defiance Industries has a heavy mech regiment of their own to defend Hesperus II. It's likely that most other large factories run their own as well, probably not as big but a couple companies worth.

With the exception of Hesperus industries and other factories none of those entities would have any production capacity and thus would be entirely reliant on battlefield salvage. The impact of factory garrisons would be the diversion of some production resources to maintaining the garrison but given garrisons such as those would not engage in raids or offensive combat their attrition rate should be much lower than the great house forces.

 

[harlikwin667]

The reason why most factories are destroyed has to do with the decline in technology up to 3025. The 2nd Succession War was the most destructive, with most warships destroyed and the first functional warship seen in centuries (other than Comstars hidden fleets) appears with the arrival of the clans in 3050.

The centuries of bloody warfare has left a few planets nearly uninhabitable and others barely with any advanced industry other than agriculture. Most fighting is reduced to raids or skirmishes. Battlemech production is just a trickle of just a few units each year across the whole Inner Sphere or parts salvaged at the after a battle.

Battlemechs are typically owned by a noble family pledging fealty or Merc company working for a Successor State. The Successor States themselves own very few units themselves, but rather gain loyalty by repairing these units for their soldiers.

If I remember my lore, there is less than a dozen fully functional mech factories spread across the Inner Sphere and they are protected better than most other planets, but there is simply not enough units (other than cannon fodder infantry) to repell most attacks. The Inner Sphere itself is simply to tired and unable to wage any more serious wars barring the formation of Fed-Com Alliance and the arrival of the Clans.

Which is why in the reach your merc company will end up slaughtering probably 10 regiments of mechs to finish the campaign (cuz it wouldn't be fun otherwise)

 

[Pht]

Strong immobile defenses will only put off the inevitable, and as has been pointed out, there's been a LOT of war going on. Even the very best immobile defenses will fall, if just to time and entropy. Even hesperus (and to call that place incredibly hardened is almost an understatement!) has been breached (not just by infantry, we're talking mechs).

From what I've read, mech production facilities generally *are* in hardened layered defenses with factory mech grade defensive forces; pretty much as much as the manufacturer can spare. Anything less is practical suicide in the BT universe, especially if you're on or near a border.

IIRC hesperus basically is a Castle Brian or so close to it as to make no difference.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Fortified_Brian_Wall ... as an example. These things have 150 points of CF and 150 points of armor (that's in capitol scale armor, so it'd be 1500 pts of damage from mech grade weapons) ; they can soak a couple of battleship weapon salvos, which is utterly amazing. To put that in retrospect, that's enough to blast large industrial buildings to slag, maybe even an entire skyscraper in one salvo. Not every factory will have this kind of protection, but they go for the best they can afford.

Mech production facilities are a primary target and are, even in times of "peace" in BT (usually when all possible combatants are panting for breath and resting) in danger of attack, sabotage, etc.