Why Barbarossa is no fun

[Borsook]

I'm using DAIM and I have modified "very hard setting" so that it gives additional bonuses to SU. Still with all that I only get a few months of challenging Barbarossa when I try to break through the 700 SU divisions. But sadly as always after few encircelemnts I just have empty, empty Su to march through. Is there nothing to be done? Is a SU that does not concider putting all of its divs in the front line but making a deep defence possible in HOI2 at all? Or is it rather the fault of overpowering air and armour units?

 

[unmerged(49614)]

Instead of making SU stronger you could make yourself weaker.

 

[kunadam]

In many way it is sensible for the AI to do that.
If you Su has its 700 divisions spread all over Eurasia then while you would be figting your way toward the Pacifics, those fight would be less chalanging, as you only encounter a franction of the nation's strenght.

On the other hand SU can still build some units in the Siberian area to make some headaches for you (not a large one, but still needing some of your armour's attention).

 

[unmerged(54240)]

700 divisions? :wacko:

Yes, Germany is known to be easy. Why not play smaller countries?

 

[unmerged(58571)]

First, you can modify the USSR's settings to value certain provinces higher - this will make them reserve troops to garrison those; you can also allow them to set more units on "reserve" orders, which might let them provide a second line of defence right behind the first (although it will move and make easy targets for your bombers rather than dig in). Second, you can modify Guerilla Warfare to improve militia more without ruining the rest of the Red Army and switch them to an AI file that churns out hordes of Militia for a month or two (or, perhaps easier, set their panic level to 0.01 in their standard 1941 file and then let them load the existing files as usual, although this might make them overbuild militia in the wrong situations); remember to make them actually research the modified doctrine, as DAIM has it on ignore by default (since it is detrimental when unmodified). Third, although only useful in conjunction with at least one of the former, rewrite the Bitter Peace trigger to make them less keen on surrendering without a fight. Here is the modified doctrine I use:

  # Guerilla Warfare Doctrine
  application =
  { id        = 14080
    name      = TECH_APP_LD_108_NAME
    desc      = TECH_APP_LD_108_DESC
    position  = { x = 252 y = 250 }
    year      = 1941 #1944 by default
    # ?
    component = { id = 14081 name = TECH_CMP_LD_108_1_NAME type = infantry_focus difficulty = 8 }
    # ?
    component = { id = 14082 name = TECH_CMP_LD_108_2_NAME type = individual_courage difficulty = 8 }
    # ?
    component = { id = 14083 name = TECH_CMP_LD_108_3_NAME type = small_unit_tactics difficulty = 8 }
    # ?
    component = { id = 14084 name = TECH_CMP_LD_108_4_NAME type = training difficulty = 8 }
    # ?
    component = { id = 14085 name = TECH_CMP_LD_108_5_NAME type = decentralized_execution difficulty = 8 }
    required  = { 6300 }
    effects =
    {
	command = { type = build_cost which = militia when = now where = relative value = -10 }
	command = { type = build_time which = militia when = now where = relative value = -10 }
      	command = { type = morale which = militia value = 50 }
	command = { type = urban_defense which = militia value = 10 }
	command = { type = forest_defense which = militia value = 10 }
	command = { type = swamp_defense which = militia value = 10 }
	command = { type = hill_defense which = militia value = 10 }
	command = { type = mountain_defense which = militia value = 10 }
	command = { type = desert_defense which = militia value = 10 }
    }

And BP trigger:

	trigger = {
		war = { country = GER country = SOV }
		random = 35
		OR = {
			control = { province = 56 data = GER } # Paris is not free
			control = { province = 56 data = VIC } # Paris is not free
			NOT = { war = { country = FRA country = GER } } # No west front, no hope of Western aid.
		}
		OR = {
			NOT = { war = { country = GER country = ITA } } # To avoid exploits
			NOT = {
				control = { province = 515 data = ITA } # Rome -> Germans winning in the south.
				control = { province = 368 data = ITA } # Genoa
				control = { province = 378 data = ITA } # Venice
			}
		}

		# Just to make sure Germany itself is not invaded
		control = { province = 300 data = GER } # Berlin
		control = { province = 90 data = GER } # Kiel
		control = { province = 376 data = GER } # München
		control = { province = 67 data = GER } # Essen

		# lost_national = { country = SOV value = 15 } # Probably not needed with the expanded province list.


		NOT = { # More provinces to avoid exploits and force TC load
			control = { province = 187 data = SOV } # Leningrad has fallen
			control = { province = 163 data = SOV } # Stalingrad has fallen
			control = { province = 175 data = SOV } # Moscow has fallen
			control = { province = 1907 data = SOV } # Baku has fallen
			# control = { province = 1572 data = SOV } # Sverdlovsk -> annoying teleport to Berlin
			control = { province =  data = SOV } # Archangelsk # -> No teleport here!
			control = { province = 1568 data = SOV } # Uralsk -> nor here 
			control = { province = 1832 data = SOV } # Saratov
			control = { province = 1838 data = SOV } # Astrakhan
			control = { province = 253 data = SOV } # Sevastopol
			control = { province = 258 data = SOV } # Rostov
			control = { province = 238 data = SOV } # Kiev
			control = { province = 212 data = SOV } # Minsk
			control = { province = 1848 data = SOV } # Batum
			control = { province = 289 data = SOV } # Demyansk
			control = { province = 278 data = SOV } # Tula
			control = { province = 168 data = SOV } # Gorkij
			control = { province = 485 data = SOV } # Warzaw

			land_percentage = { country = GER value = 0.9 } # The Red Army is still large, counter-attack!
			

			# war = { country = GER country = JAP }
			# war = { country = SOV country = JAP }
			alliance = { country = GER country = JAP }
		}

	}

This makes them put up a fight before they surrender, although it is still quite possible to win in one summer when attacking in 1942 - particularly if the AI has traded away all its supplies and the first few hundred divisions to die fight with out-of-supply penalties half the time.

 

[Borsook]

700 divisions?

Yes, Germany is known to be easy. Why not play smaller countries?

I do play smaller countries. But this is not the point, Germany with those settings should be hard, and would be so if AI was not that keen on allowing you to make pockets with 40% of its forces crammed in one province where they can't use their numbers properly due to stacking penalties.

@Wobbler - thanx, these are exactly ideas I was looking for.
PS. I also see that DAIM puts all repair techs on ignore for SU... I don't know if this is such a good idea, they will waste more IC this way, and at least in my games they never seem to be lacking in research.

 

[Black_Shade]

I do play smaller countries. But this is not the point, Germany with those settings should be hard, and would be so if AI was not that keen on allowing you to make pockets with 40% of its forces crammed in one province where they can't use their numbers properly due to stacking penalties.

@Wobbler - thanx, these are exactly ideas I was looking for.
PS. I also see that DAIM puts all repair techs on ignore for SU... I don't know if this is such a good idea, they will waste more IC this way, and at least in my games they never seem to be lacking in research.

You could also try not using encirclements... the game will always be easy if you use them, no matter who you play as. It doesnt matter if the SU is given 2000 divisions, if you can break through and encircle your going to win every time.

 

[unmerged(59460)]

Try downloading the HSR mod and play on Gröfaz difficulty, that should be a challenge even for you.

 

[Borsook]

You could also try not using encirclements... the game will always be easy if you use them, no matter who you play as. It doesnt matter if the SU is given 2000 divisions, if you can break through and encircle your going to win every time.

I know I could do that, but what is the point of playing a strategy game is I have to force myself into playing badly? The point is not avoid making pockets, they are historic and should happen, the point would rather be to convince AI not to put ALL its divisions in the first line so you won't destroy them all at once (not to mention that AI fails to grasp that 50 divs in one province do not necesserally fight better than 24)

 

[Borsook]

Try downloading the HSR mod and play on Gröfaz difficulty, that should be a challenge even for you.

Yes, I probably should try it sooner or later. It's just that some changes there (at least judging from their description) put me off

 

[CSJ]

Yea, the AI is a bit lagging in some research areas in HSR. Example, playing as the US I did a D-Day in Jan 44 I think, and I had 43' infantry going on 45' and the Germans were still using 39 going on 41 infantry (NOT including expeditionary forces).

 

[Acheron]

As others said, make yourself maybe a bit weaker. Invest into a nice Kriegsmarine, aid the Italians, take stinking ministers, go for paratroopers and their transport planes and what not.

If you modify the SU AI files, what about making them set up a defense line behind the rivers, few provines west of Moscov, where Smolensk is the single province not protected by river?

 

[Borsook]

As others said, make yourself maybe a bit weaker. Invest into a nice Kriegsmarine, aid the Italians, take stinking ministers, go for paratroopers and their transport planes and what not.

If you modify the SU AI files, what about making them set up a defense line behind the rivers, few provines west of Moscov, where Smolensk is the single province not protected by river?

I do most of the above (I do all the "flavour" things - Para, navy etc, still I refuse things like bad ministers, should it come to that I might as well play a different game). It's really not the strength ratio, they're even too strong, just their tactics are really bad and ahistorical on top of that (one line of defense/no reserves)...
@AI modifications - this seems a very good idea, I'm just not sure how to go about it technically - would it be enough if I gave those provinces higher importance? The key would be for them to move their line back east if its gets broken and I'm afraid such modification might make them cling to it even more = more pockets.

 

[hendriks]

It is not so difficult to make the USSR more resilliant to the german attack. All you need is a little tweaking of the obvious....

- 1. Weather effects are cruelly ignored almost in this game, you can advance at high speed and fight even in blizzards, and those are rare. Frozen ground gives a higher malus bonus then snow! Hardly any MP is lost when your army camps in teh winter of 1941 to await the easy spring of 1942 and finish the job. Increase speed reductions in bad weather, give a heavy penalty for fighting and an even higher + for defending to the russians only.

-2. Ground unit output. Pathetically slow, you do historical pockets but USSR cannot recover as it takes ages to build one infantry divisions, let alone a tank division, they try, but they don't even have the time, so it's a classic case of YOU don't suffer enough and they suffer TOO MUCH, as the AI doesn't create pockets on you! So you don't HAVE to rebuild, just re-supply with MP. USSR created massive armies in months, true, badly supplied, but then make the russian infantry worse to the german one, give nation specific infantry. Only thing you can do is dramatically decrease build time and cost from the time you go to war with USSR for ALL units. Dramatical means half build time and half cost cuts, believe me, I tried and it takes them even then months to get a decent army. This is because only 50% is at the front, the rest moves around (no dig in bonus) and wonders the great eastern plains or sits around in Finland. I do not even consider this an AI cheat but a bare necessity!

-3. Soviet economy and help from the west, none existent! (almost) Thousands of planes, guns, trucks, tanks etc were delivered, which equipped the USSR army in 1941/42 until their economy got back, in this game, the USSR gets some supplies...

-4. Battles, important battles a human would fight to the death, the AI gives up, so battles need to be scripted, nobody likes this but then hey, make a better AI... Battle of Moscow/Leningrad/Stalingrad. Militia, forts, and AA created by event in cities, it works and is great fun! I have Leningrad impossible to take but surrounded and they get supplies by event, sometimes I manage to break, but mostly not, and if I do, at expense of other fronts, just like it should be.

I have a whole range of events for this and it has taken much testing to match it to a human, but it does now. But nobody wants them... I like 'm and keep hoping for improved mods in the meantime...

 

[Borsook]

It is not so difficult to make the USSR more resilliant to the german attack. All you need is a little tweaking of the obvious....

- 1. Weather effects are cruelly ignored almost in this game, you can advance at high speed and fight even in blizzards, and those are rare. Frozen ground gives a higher malus bonus then snow! Hardly any MP is lost when your army camps in teh winter of 1941 to await the easy spring of 1942 and finish the job. Increase speed reductions in bad weather, give a heavy penalty for fighting and an even higher + for defending to the russians only.

-2. Ground unit output. Pathetically slow, you do historical pockets but USSR cannot recover as it takes ages to build one infantry divisions, let alone a tank division, they try, but they don't even have the time, so it's a classic case of YOU don't suffer enough and they suffer TOO MUCH, as the AI doesn't create pockets on you! So you don't HAVE to rebuild, just re-supply with MP. USSR created massive armies in months, true, badly supplied, but then make the russian infantry worse to the german one, give nation specific infantry. Only thing you can do is dramatically decrease build time and cost from the time you go to war with USSR for ALL units. Dramatical means half build time and half cost cuts, believe me, I tried and it takes them even then months to get a decent army. This is because only 50% is at the front, the rest moves around (no dig in bonus) and wonders the great eastern plains or sits around in Finland. I do not even consider this an AI cheat but a bare necessity!

-3. Soviet economy and help from the west, none existent! (almost) Thousands of planes, guns, trucks, tanks etc were delivered, which equipped the USSR army in 1941/42 until their economy got back, in this game, the USSR gets some supplies...

-4. Battles, important battles a human would fight to the death, the AI gives up, so battles need to be scripted, nobody likes this but then hey, make a better AI... Battle of Moscow/Leningrad/Stalingrad. Militia, forts, and AA created by event in cities, it works and is great fun! I have Leningrad impossible to take but surrounded and they get supplies by event, sometimes I manage to break, but mostly not, and if I do, at expense of other fronts, just like it should be.

I have a whole range of events for this and it has taken much testing to match it to a human, but it does now. But nobody wants them... I like 'm and keep hoping for improved mods in the meantime...

Those events you mention - is it possible to have a look at them?

 

[unmerged(63310)]

How do you handle Soviets building twice as many numbers as that just exhausts their manpower pool all the faster? I play on VH always(except as some small countries or UK, US, France, etc in peacetime)and whenever fighting Soviets they always run out of manpower before the war is over because of stupid AI placement. Why can't a simple rule be made of no more than 30 divisions in one province unless it's important victory province like Moscow or Berlin. That would spread out Soviets and force any encircling force to fight thru multiple battles to create a pocket. With superior air force and experienced leaders it's still fairly easy to win in single player because the biggest factor in easy victories is how the AI doesn't attempt to break out of pocket or reinforce the pocket. From what I understand that is impossible to change in current HoI because of coding limitations, but spreading out the units is the best we can do.

 

[Borsook]

How do you handle Soviets building twice as many numbers as that just exhausts their manpower pool all the faster? I play on VH always(except as some small countries or UK, US, France, etc in peacetime)and whenever fighting Soviets they always run out of manpower before the war is over because of stupid AI placement. Why can't a simple rule be made of no more than 30 divisions in one province unless it's important victory province like Moscow or Berlin. That would spread out Soviets and force any encircling force to fight thru multiple battles to create a pocket. With superior air force and experienced leaders it's still fairly easy to win in single player because the biggest factor in easy victories is how the AI doesn't attempt to break out of pocket or reinforce the pocket. From what I understand that is impossible to change in current HoI because of coding limitations, but spreading out the units is the best we can do.

Yes, too many Divs in one province is a serious problem with the AI, esp that it seems not to take stacking penalties into account. Anyway it can be kinda solved (ie their running out of MP) by giving them high trickleback.

PS. As for events - maybe we should have a first winter in Russia event for Germany?

 

[unmerged(63310)]

Well I play HSR mod alot and they have an event for Russian winter that gives -20% to German morale, and battle effiecency, plus -2% battle events like breakthrough, assault etc. I think movement penalties in snow and mud are rincreased also... that is nice and pretty much brings Germany to a halt thru the winter, but the Soviet AI rarely attacks in the winter so the historical Soviet counter-offensives starting in late November never materialize. That means the horrible manpower losses of Germany simply due to the cold and the Red Army offensives never happen. Not sure how to model those anyway... apparently AI doesn't take into account human battle effeciency, only it's own, and given it's winter, it doesn't figure the odds are good for an attack.

HoI is a fun game initially, but gets too easy once the mechanics are figured out and the simplicity of the AI is understood. I still play mostly because with all it's faults its the best current ww2 sim/wargame and it can occasionally be fun when the AI does something unexpected or ahistorical events happen which changed the course of ww2 in a major way.

 

[unmerged(49083)]

To make the AI defend/attack on a broad front, you need to make the provinces 1 VP each. This is done in the Risk battle mod so they don't concentrate 127 divisions in say Daugavpils and then say 4 in Pinsk. The AI then understands that the provinces are of equal value and must be equally treated rather than a rabble of low VPs and high VPs which unbalances the AI's performance. I suggest that for winter offensives that if the german player must simply secede some provinces to represent it IRL and perhaps during times, units are locked (to represent not a step back hitler order) or would that destroy them completely?

 

[wazzagrunt]

try lowering the cost of industry and the time it takes to build to ; 1 industry to build in 1 day
In conjunction with this increase the penalty for attacking in bad weather.

the allies go nuts producing industry. ( Italy and japan don't so you need to give them planes, ships etc )
For the Soviets simply giving them a large winter bonus and you a higher penalty in winter allows the realistic encirclements in summer and the mud and blood for winter (Soviet recovery time).

OK its not perfect, usa Ai still sucks but Canada makes up for that ( log in as canada do the F12 'manpower' cheat and you get an aggressive atlantic enemy).
the main difference you will notice other than in the army is that resources take on a new importance.
do try and goodluck