Will Russia lose access to the Cossacks estate?

[RichardOlcese]

Hi! Ricky Olcese here. It has been a long time, and I am glad to rejoin the forum!

I have been reading the latest dev diaries, and as an enthusiastic Muscovy/Russia player, I have some doubts about some of the announced mechanics. I would like to discuss two very specific issues about it here. I opened this new thread because I saw no comments by the devs on the dev diary, and I was told it was locked to prevent an angry debate taking place there. I'd like to deal here exclusively with two questions I feel are important about the future Russian gameplay.

Firstly, something that might be intended, but I feel the devs might have not noticed it. When the player unlocks the Russian Empire tier I reform, Russia's tech group changes to Western. This is a cosmetic change, not affecting units. Units are affected at a later stage. But as a fellow EU4 player pointed out on Reddit, Russia would be losing the Cossack estate! Even if it's cosmetic, the availability of the Cossack estate depends on having the Eastern tech group! I think the result would not only detract favour from Muscovy, but would also be ahistorical because the Russian Empire kept using cossack regiments up until WW1. Could anybody confirm this reasoning?

Secondly, there's a minor issue regarding the tribute due to the Horde controlling Sarai at the beginning of the game. There are two debuffs announced for Russia: a) a starting modifier saying "Yearly tax income -24", and b) a yearly event about paying directly 44 ducats (or another number proportional to the player's income, I suppose) to the owner of Sarai. So, you're basically paying the tribute twice?

I would simply like to discuss the aforementioned two specific issues, particularly the one regarding the Cossacks estate, because I feel it could result in the unintended consequence of losing that estate for Russia. Have you, fellow EU4 players, understood something different from the dev diary? Or is my reasoning about it correct?

 

[Kapi96]

huh, I never thought of that. TBH I don't really understand why tech group changes have been added anyway. They're kind of pointless now. They're used for map knowledge spread and possibly estates, anything else? Makes no real sense to change tech group if units can be changed separately.

Although I don't think unit groups should really change either. Having "western" units for non-western nations just seems weird. If they really want a way to make it possible to upgrade your army in such a way I'd much prefer a new unit group were added rather than just shifting to western. We've already got something like that for native Americans with the High American group (although IIRC it's not possible to change to it currently?), why not just create new groups like that rather than make western the #1 best that everybody wants to be?

 

[AKLEONI]

they do change tech group or only units?

 

[RichardOlcese]

they do change tech group or only units?

Both. First tech group, and if you fulfill a later mission, also units. The tech group change, I believe, would prevent Russia from having a Cossacks esteta and thus Cossack units. Could someone please confirm this reasoning?

 

[grotaclas]

1.34 already contains several scripted effects which can unlock estates. For example the teutonic order event The Cossacks of Ruthenia (flavor_teu.45) uses the unlock_estate effect to enable the cossacks estate. These effects are independent of the unit type or tech group. I think it is reasonable to assume that russia gets something similar in 1.35 so that they retain or regain the cossacks estate.

 

[Guibou]

Welcome back,

From what i understand, and keep in mind that all this info was from a few months ago so it might have changed inbetween :

1) It's from a mission after forming Russia not the goverment reform tier 1. So if you truly want to keep the estate, just dont click that mission. But I understand your point.
2) You are paying twice. One is fixed with the province modifiers and one is the yearly event. I think declaring on the horde will now be the first war and not the second anymore.

 

[Kapi96]

1.34 already contains several scripted effects which can unlock estates. For example the teutonic order event The Cossacks of Ruthenia (flavor_teu.45) uses the unlock_estate effect to enable the cossacks estate. These effects are independent of the unit type or tech group. I think it is reasonable to assume that russia gets something similar in 1.35 so that they retain or regain the cossacks estate.

While true, it's certainly possible Paradox have forgotten to include such an event. It's happened for things in the past too. So maybe a reminder like this could help get it included.

I also can't help but wonder if the new French-English culture will count for the English great projects.

 

[RichardOlcese]

While true, it's certainly possible Paradox have forgotten to include such an event. It's happened for things in the past too. So maybe a reminder like this could help get it included.

I also can't help but wonder if the new French-English culture will count for the English great projects.

Right, that's true. The game, after all this years, DLCs, expansions... has become quite complex and its modifiers are very much intertwined. Since they haven't announced, nor warned, anything about the Russian Empire "not" losing the Cossacks estate, that may indicate the possibility that they haven't noticed that eventuality.

Your doubt about the new combined Anglo-French culture is also very valid.

I mostly like the recent and announced changes. But it's sometimes difficult to keep track of the game, and to understand the new mechanics, because the Wiki is not entirely up to date and also what is said in the Dev Diaries is sometimes inaccurate in relation to the final state of the game.

 

[Oporto]

There's no point in changing Russia's tech group into Western-European. Abandoning Eeasern-European tech group may surely lead into losing the "Cossacks" estate, unless some special mechanic allows it to remain. It looks like a nod towards an old westernization path. But even if we are talking about westernization of Russia's millitary, there are already units in Eastern-European Tech Group that represent these tendencies, just like in Anatlolian and Muslim tech groups.

 

[FishieFan]

There's no point in changing Russia's tech group into Western-European. Abandoning Eeasern-European tech group may surely lead into losing the "Cossacks" estate, unless some special mechanic allows it to remain. It looks like a nod towards an old westernization path. But even if we are talking about westernization of Russia's millitary, there are already units in Eastern-European Tech Group that represent these tendencies, just like in Anatlolian and Muslim tech groups.

Western like but not fully western, this is why the pips differ

 

[Oporto]

Western like but not fully western, this is why the pips differ

Exactly: western-like, but retaining the local uniquness.

 

[Ogele]

Hi! Ricky Olcese here. It has been a long time, and I am glad to rejoin the forum!

I have been reading the latest dev diaries, and as an enthusiastic Muscovy/Russia player, I have some doubts about some of the announced mechanics. I would like to discuss two very specific issues about it here. I opened this new thread because I saw no comments by the devs on the dev diary, and I was told it was locked to prevent an angry debate taking place there. I'd like to deal here exclusively with two questions I feel are important about the future Russian gameplay.

Firstly, something that might be intended, but I feel the devs might have not noticed it. When the player unlocks the Russian Empire tier I reform, Russia's tech group changes to Western. This is a cosmetic change, not affecting units. Units are affected at a later stage. But as a fellow EU4 player pointed out on Reddit, Russia would be losing the Cossack estate! Even if it's cosmetic, the availability of the Cossack estate depends on having the Eastern tech group! I think the result would not only detract favour from Muscovy, but would also be ahistorical because the Russian Empire kept using cossack regiments up until WW1. Could anybody confirm this reasoning?

Secondly, there's a minor issue regarding the tribute due to the Horde controlling Sarai at the beginning of the game. There are two debuffs announced for Russia: a) a starting modifier saying "Yearly tax income -24", and b) a yearly event about paying directly 44 ducats (or another number proportional to the player's income, I suppose) to the owner of Sarai. So, you're basically paying the tribute twice?

I would simply like to discuss the aforementioned two specific issues, particularly the one regarding the Cossacks estate, because I feel it could result in the unintended consequence of losing that estate for Russia. Have you, fellow EU4 players, understood something different from the dev diary? Or is my reasoning about it correct?

Regarding your first point: I actually did keep the Cossacks in mind. When you change your tech group to Western you get a hidden country_flag set which enables the Cossacks for you. So even if you are no longer in the Eastern tech group, you will still have access to the Cossacks.

To your second point: I revisted the tribute you pay to the Hordes:

As you are already paying in form of the event, the additional Ducat loss from the modifier didn't feel quite appropriate.

 

[RichardOlcese]

Regarding your first point: I actually did keep the Cossacks in mind. When you change your tech group to Western you get a hidden country_flag set which enables the Cossacks for you. So even if you are no longer in the Eastern tech group, you will still have access to the Cossacks.

To your second point: I revisted the tribute you pay to the Hordes:
View attachment 962861
As you are already paying in form of the event, the additional Ducat loss from the modifier didn't feel quite appropriate.

Great solutions to both issues! Great feedback! Good work! As a fan and as a customer I feel fully satisfied with the products, the development, and the contact with the community. I will certainly and gladly buy the DLC. Thank you Mr Ogele.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

To your second point: I revisted the tribute you pay to the Hordes:
View attachment 962861
As you are already paying in form of the event, the additional Ducat loss from the modifier didn't feel quite appropriate.

Personally, I think it would be better if you lost the event and retained the ducat loss from the modifier. Seems cleaner that way, and a yearly event will be annoying. Maybe just have 1 initializing event.

 

[anbory]

Regarding your first point: I actually did keep the Cossacks in mind. When you change your tech group to Western you get a hidden country_flag set which enables the Cossacks for you. So even if you are no longer in the Eastern tech group, you will still have access to the Cossacks.

To your second point: I revisted the tribute you pay to the Hordes:
View attachment 962861
As you are already paying in form of the event, the additional Ducat loss from the modifier didn't feel quite appropriate.

Regarding this Tatar Yoke mechanic and modifier's description. It's seems a little bit out of historical context. Kievan Rus fell in 1139, not in 1223. After a long period of Rurikid dynasty infightings, people of Southern Rus found themselves to be unabled to resist steppe nomads that led to a massive exodus to the Northen Rus which led to the rise of Vladimir and Moscow. By 1223, Kiev was sacked several times and Kievan Rus was no more. Actually there were about 25 independent Rurikid princedoms at this time.

Moreover, it's kinda ridiculous to read that "any self-respecting East Slav yearns to continue the legacy of the Romans". An average East Slav in 1444 barely knew who the Romans were. All this "legacy of the Romans" stuff were exclusively related to the Muscovite branch of the Rurikid dynasty due to their ties with Monomachos dynasty. I guess, this part should be rewrited in some way.

The Yoke mechanic is a bit out of historical context too. The tribute that Muscovy paid to Great Horde was symbolic and when the standing on the Ugra river happened, Great Horde found that it couldn't compete with Muscovy anymore. According to the Vologods-Perm Chronicle, the Great Prince of Moscow hadn't paid the tribute 9 years before the standing happened. But in your dev diary, Great Horde is somehow able to raze all of Muscovy without a slightest resistance for not paying tribute for a single year.

 

[RichardOlcese]

Regarding this Tatar Yoke mechanic and modifier's description. It's seems a little bit out of historical context. Kievan Rus fell in 1139, not in 1223. After a long period of Rurikid dynasty infightings, people of Southern Rus found themselves to be unabled to resist steppe nomads that led to a massive exodus to the Northen Rus which led to the rise of Vladimir and Moscow. By 1223, Kiev was sacked several times and Kievan Rus was no more. Actually there were about 25 independent Rurikid princedoms at this time.

Moreover, it's kinda ridiculous to read that "any self-respecting East Slav yearns to continue the legacy of the Romans". An average East Slav in 1444 barely knew who the Romans were. All this "legacy of the Romans" stuff were exclusively related to the Muscovite branch of the Rurikid dynasty due to their ties with Monomachos dynasty. I guess, this part should be rewrited in some way.

The Yoke mechanic is a bit out of historical context too. The tribute that Muscovy paid to Great Horde was symbolic and when the standing on the Ugra river happened, Great Horde found that it couldn't compete with Muscovy anymore. According to the Vologods-Perm Chronicle, the Great Prince of Moscow hadn't paid the tribute 9 years before the standing happened. But in your dev diary, Great Horde is somehow able to raze all of Muscovy without a slightest resistance for not paying tribute for a single year.

It's just a mechanic to represent the nexus between Muscovy and their Tatar "overlords" had not yet definitely be cut by 1444. As a game, EU4 is full of stereotypes, exaggerations, and misrepresentations, not that it's not a game about history, but first and foremost it's a game, and it needs to represent things in a way that makes sense to the game's rules and situation, not to an utterly accurate analysis of history. The Tatar Yoke in this case serves as a bit of a nerf for Muscovy, which would otherwise find itself completely free and powerful from 1444 affecting game balance. That the effects of the Tatar Yoke are a bit exaggerated when compared to the exact situation in 1444, might be, but a slight historical exaggeration is worth a game that makes sense and is a lot more balanced.

 

[anbory]

It's just a mechanic to represent the nexus between Muscovy and their Tatar "overlords" had not yet definitely be cut by 1444. As a game, EU4 is full of stereotypes, exaggerations, and misrepresentations, not that it's not a game about history, but first and foremost it's a game, and it needs to represent things in a way that makes sense to the game's rules and situation, not to an utterly accurate analysis of history. The Tatar Yoke in this case serves as a bit of a nerf for Muscovy, which would otherwise find itself completely free and powerful from 1444 affecting game balance. That the effects of the Tatar Yoke are a bit exaggerated when compared to the exact situation in 1444, might be, but a slight historical exaggeration is worth a game that makes sense and is a lot more balanced.

That's why we need to write a description that is objectively not true? Also, we already have a nice mechanic that can represent historical things without going outside the game rules. It's called a "war". Rather than just giving Great Horde an absurd ability to devastate every single Muscovite province for 50 mil you can give an option to give up peacefully or start a war to restore the yoke. If you can beat Muscovy as Great Horde than you would get the yoke back. If you've lost the war or you've chosen not to wage it in a first place because you know you wouldn't win it (what actually happened irl) than, shame on you, no more yoke. That's how the good design works.

 

[RichardOlcese]

That's why we need to write a description that is objectively not true? Also, we already have a nice mechanic that can represent historical things without going outside the game rules. It's called a "war". Rather than just giving Great Horde an absurd ability to devastate every single Muscovite province for 50 mil you can give an option to give up peacefully or start a war to restore the yoke. If you can beat Muscovy as Great Horde than you would get the yoke back. If you've lost the war or you've chosen not to wage it in a first place because you know you wouldn't win it (what actually happened irl) than, shame on you, no more yoke. That's how the good design works.

That makes sense!

 

[FishieFan]

Regarding this Tatar Yoke mechanic and modifier's description. It's seems a little bit out of historical context. Kievan Rus fell in 1139, not in 1223. After a long period of Rurikid dynasty infightings, people of Southern Rus found themselves to be unabled to resist steppe nomads that led to a massive exodus to the Northen Rus which led to the rise of Vladimir and Moscow. By 1223, Kiev was sacked several times and Kievan Rus was no more. Actually there were about 25 independent Rurikid princedoms at this time.

Kiev had long been eclipsed but it still had symbolic significance.

Moreover, it's kinda ridiculous to read that "any self-respecting East Slav yearns to continue the legacy of the Romans". An average East Slav in 1444 barely knew who the Romans were. All this "legacy of the Romans" stuff were exclusively related to the Muscovite branch of the Rurikid dynasty due to their ties with Monomachos dynasty.

They should've done russian kniaz, rus' prince or something less exonymic, but just as the West's Catholicism gave it a reverence to the Roman Empire that all monarchs wished to emulate, so too did many Eastern Orthodox states wish to emulate the byzantines

I guess, this part should be rewrited in some way.

Rewritten not rewrited

The Yoke mechanic is a bit out of historical context too. The tribute that Muscovy paid to Great Horde was symbolic and when the standing on the Ugra river happened, Great Horde found that it couldn't compete with Muscovy anymore. According to the Vologods-Perm Chronicle, the Great Prince of Moscow hadn't paid the tribute 9 years before the standing happened. But in your dev diary, Great Horde is somehow able to raze all of Muscovy without a slightest resistance for not paying tribute for a single year.

If you make them a tributary, the liberty desire would be too high for it to be paid.
If you make them fight constant wars to simulate the raids, then all of muscovies allies can be called in
If you leave it as an event then it has consistency with the cossack raid event
Best of bad situation

 

[Kapi96]

If you make them fight constant wars to simulate the raids, then all of muscovies allies can be called in

Probably could've added a special event/CB that prevents allies being called in if they really wanted to though.