• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

unmerged(24934)

Citizen
Jan 21, 2004
153
0
www.taringa.net
It has come to surprise the low or null attention paid by the AGC/EEP to this importante subject of the Early Modern Europe. I would like to contribue with some events regarding witch hunting specially due to its demographic impact on Southwestern Germany, Switzerland, Hungary, Sweden and Scotland.
Optimist values (lower numbers) indicate at least 100,000 killed people between 1450 (origin of the demonic conspiracy) and 1750, when the Illuminist reason started to erradicate this secular practice.

Any suggestions are welcomed!

Ígneo.
 
I don't know how it can be modeled fo 100,000 (at least) people over three centuries and for each involved province without too much spamming player. Propose.

Be aware population in EU2 is only a small percentage of total population in a province.
 
Some specific witches are represented by events, e.g. event BAY 125005 (Agnes Bernauer drowned as witch).

However I see witchhunting more as a general random event that could strike every province if it´s conservative catholic in that time.

Trigger could be catholic or Counterreformed Catholic + very narrowminded.
Reduces population by a small amount, e.g. - 5 or - 10 (because the numbers EU2 uses are not the entire number of people living in a province).
 
Yoda: I propose not only a demographic impact but also an economic and social one...like an increase in the Narrowminded of the affected country.

ConjurerDragon: I don't think witch-hunting can be deal individually because it was, as a matter of fact, a collective phenomena. Since 1450 withcraft was generally judged as a conspiracy of an alternate society gathered on Sabbath and that had a compromise with Satan.
I also disagree with the random event for one reasons: Counterreformed countries such as Spain or some Italian minors had few or none witchcraft proccess. And while Witch-hunting was a catholic phenomena, it also developed in Calvinist Switzerland (with huge percentages of population tried by witchcraft), Scotland, and Hungary. Also lutheran states of northern Germany,and Sweden-Finland burned lots of witches, specially during 1650-1700.
Even the "peaceful" and innovative dutch territories tried a high number of witches.
So, witchhunting, far from be a worldspread phenomena, hit Central Europe with special strenght (and above all, the small german principalities, such as Koln, Trier and the Swabian areas).
 
Changing DP as Narrowminded can have a huge impact on a country (but increase can't hurt number of available colonists for colonial nations).

Could you please provide an example of proposed event(s)?
 
#(1490) Witch-hunting in Switzerland
#by Ígneo
event = {
id = ?
random = no
country = HEL
name = "EVENTNAME?" #Witch-hunting in Switzerland
desc = "EVENTHIST?"
#-#Medieval Inquisition tried a large number of witches, but collective witch-hunting was a exclusive modern phenomena. Individual melleficium was not uncommon in lots of rural areas, but the scholastic demonology science didn't develop until the end of the 14th century, relating witchs and conspiracy gatherings that were supervised by Satan himself. This conspiracy paranoia can track its roots as far as the first Jew and Leper massacre of the High Middle Ages, when thousands were slaughtered by crusaders. But it's on the early 15th century when demonological thories become fully accepted by the upper classes. The two Councils of Constanze and Basel are the birth of the first work that directly connects malleficium and demonology. The work of Johannes Nider, the Formicarius, is a masterpiece of scholastic demonology and marks a new era in the witch-hunting period. The work of Heinrich Kramer, the Malleus Maleficarum (the Hammer of the Wicked) is the first work that reaches a widespread attention in the subject, and works as a inquisitorial manual for witch-hunters. But it's not Church who tries the most in Modern Ages. On the contrary, Civil Courst are responsible for 85%-90% of the executions. Switzerland is home to the first witch-hunting proccess and an estimate of 5,000-10,000 makes it one of the most affected regions in Europe. Only by the early 18th century, with the Ilustration on the doors of Geneva, will the horrible massacre stop producing victims on the western side of the Alps.

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1490 }
offset = 150
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1700 }
action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME?" #Burn the heretics!
command = { type = population which = 388 value = -500 } #Bern
command = { type = population which = 1612 value = -500 } #Schwyz
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 4 value = -1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = 388 value = -1 } #Bern
command = { type = provincetax which = 1612 value = -1 } #Schwyz
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }

}
}

My english is horrible and repetitive, I know, but I think some of you might reelaborate or correct the above description. I can write a lot more events for Koln, Strasburg, Baden, Austria, Poland, England, Milan, Savoy, Sweden, Pfalz, Mainz, Hungary, etc.

Thanks!
 
Ígneo said:
#(1490) Witch-hunting in Switzerland
#by Ígneo
event = {
id = ?
random = no
country = HEL
name = "EVENTNAME?" #Witch-hunting in Switzerland
desc = "EVENTHIST?"
#-#Medieval Inquisition tried a large number of witches, but collective witch-hunting was a exclusive modern phenomena. Individual melleficium was not uncommon in lots of rural areas, but the scholastic demonology science didn't develop until the end of the 14th century, relating witchs and conspiracy gatherings that were supervised by Satan himself. This conspiracy paranoia can track its roots as far as the first Jew and Leper massacre of the High Middle Ages, when thousands were slaughtered by crusaders. But it's on the early 15th century when demonological thories become fully accepted by the upper classes. The two Councils of Constanze and Basel are the birth of the first work that directly connects malleficium and demonology. The work of Johannes Nider, the Formicarius, is a masterpiece of scholastic demonology and marks a new era in the witch-hunting period. The work of Heinrich Kramer, the Malleus Maleficarum (the Hammer of the Wicked) is the first work that reaches a widespread attention in the subject, and works as a inquisitorial manual for witch-hunters. But it's not Church who tries the most in Modern Ages. On the contrary, Civil Courst are responsible for 85%-90% of the executions. Switzerland is home to the first witch-hunting proccess and an estimate of 5,000-10,000 makes it one of the most affected regions in Europe. Only by the early 18th century, with the Ilustration on the doors of Geneva, will the horrible massacre stop producing victims on the western side of the Alps.

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1490 }
offset = 150
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1700 }
action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME?" #Burn the heretics!
command = { type = population which = 388 value = -500 } #Bern
command = { type = population which = 1612 value = -500 } #Schwyz
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 4 value = -1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = 388 value = -1 } #Bern
command = { type = provincetax which = 1612 value = -1 } #Schwyz
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }

}
}

My english is horrible and repetitive, I know, but I think some of you might reelaborate or correct the above description. I can write a lot more events for Koln, Strasburg, Baden, Austria, Poland, England, Milan, Savoy, Sweden, Pfalz, Mainz, Hungary, etc.

Thanks!

My opinion about the event is that a player lacks a way out and it´s too punishing.

As you display the event the regent/player has no way to say "no, we don´t burn witches" (with approbiate other consequences of course) as if witchhunting was something that could not be influenced by the ruling regent.

As I see it witchhunting was often done against the wishes of the pope and the italian roman church by local authorities that were guided more by greed, lower human instincts (that bitch did not want me - she must be a witch! or if she´s a witch I get half her possessions) or the desire to satisfy some superstitious peasant mob (sure, burn her SHE must be responsible that the cows gave sour milk or the crop failed).

As such I think the +1 stability justified that you used (peasant mob appeased).

However I would give a small sum of money to represent the half of the possessions that the judge took (the other half went to the one accusing the witch as far as I remember my visit to the museum), e.g. +10 ducats.

Province Population will be gained back in the next years, however -500 at once in two provinces is still much in my opinion. Bern starts with 12000, Zürich with 10000 "population" in the year 1419. -500 is 5% of the ENTIRE population of Zürich, not only 500 single persons.

Province tax is however forever gone unless some other event raises it back up. So I would not lower province tax. You should consider the percentage it represents: Even more wealthy provinces have only 10-20 basetax. In your event take Switzerland: Bern starts with only 9, Zürich with 7 base tax. -1 means more than 10% of the taxes are gone. Permanent.

To sum it up my suggestions would be
- if witches are burned then give a small money bonus, e.g. +10 ducats
- no permanent loss of provincetax. Either no loss in the event - or a later event in which the loss is given back a few years later.
- less loss of population at once. Perhaps 2 events a hundred years apart with -250 population each?
-create a b choice as a way out. Sure the mob will be angry, e.g. +revoltrisk for a year, no stability bonus and you gain no money. But you avoid the population loss

Another problem might be that not always the country owns the province one expects. What if Switzerland has lost Zürich and conquered the Vaud (Savoyen)? Wouldn´t instead of fixed provinces in the event not -1 (random province) be more useful?
 
Ok, I have several corrections made both to your correction and the event. I agree that the Elector or the Prince should have a say (as as matter of fact, they often did. Levack, a witch-hunting expert, says that as the state was smaller, the hunt was proportionally bigger) on this issues. Most expert agree that if wasn't for traditional centralization in France, but especially on England, witch-craze might've turned into general paranoia and massive executions. On the contrary, small principalities, such as Trier and Koln, lost thousands of people, and there are records of general burning that involved entire villages.

As I see it witchhunting was often done against the wishes of the pope and the italian roman church by local authorities that were guided more by greed, lower human instincts (that bitch did not want me - she must be a witch! or if she´s a witch I get half her possessions) or the desire to satisfy some superstitious peasant mob (sure, burn her SHE must be responsible that the cows gave sour milk or the crop failed).

This is completely innacurate. As as mater of fact Rome and the Model Spanish Inquisition never believed in the demon pact, and evicted the idea from it's territories. In the northern HRE territories were the only places that witch-hunting took place. Estates like Milano, Venetia, and Savoy were the only big witch-hunters of the Early Modern Age, all of who were not as tightly submitted to Rome as Siena or Napoles, in which witch hunting wasn't observed.

I have reduced the sum of the population halved, thou I want to state that 10,000 people burned in Switzerland must have been quite a large percentage of the population (because of the phenomena).

I agree that removing 1 tax is too severe, so I have also removed it.

To answer your last suggestion, I would say I don't like contrafactual history. But I say that if the Swiss Cantons were to have conquered Vaud (wich was the origin of witch-hunting and one of the most affected regions), we can't be sure how the history would've developed there. Why not a big and powerful swiss state that forbids witch-hunting?

I also consider that Calvinism should be added as increasing factor of witch-hunting. YES, Calvinism also prosecuted witches and even with more religious zeal than the Catholics.

Dealing with it, I would like to propose an event describing Calvin stay in Geneva (I think there is none) and the conservative effect that both he and Zwingli had on Geneva and Zurich, but Switzerland in general, providing a -1 innovativeness.

#(1490) Witch-hunting in Switzerland
#by Ígneo
event = {
id = ?
random = no
country = HEL
name = "EVENTNAME?" #Witch-hunting in Switzerland
desc = "EVENTHIST?"
#-#Medieval Inquisition tried a large number of witches, but collective witch-hunting was a exclusive modern phenomena. Individual melleficium was not uncommon in lots of rural areas, but the scholastic demonology science didn't develop until the end of the 14th century, relating witchs and conspiracy gatherings that were supervised by Satan himself. This conspiracy paranoia can track its roots as far as the first Jew and Leper massacre of the High Middle Ages, when thousands were slaughtered by crusaders. But it's on the early 15th century when demonological thories become fully accepted by the upper classes. The two Councils of Constanze and Basel are the birth of the first work that directly connects malleficium and demonology. The work of Johannes Nider, the Formicarius, is a masterpiece of scholastic demonology and marks a new era in the witch-hunting period. The work of Heinrich Kramer, the Malleus Maleficarum (the Hammer of the Wicked) is the first work that reaches a widespread attention in the subject, and works as a inquisitorial manual for witch-hunters. But it's not Church who tries the most in Modern Ages. On the contrary, Civil Courst are responsible for 85%-90% of the executions. Switzerland is home to the first witch-hunting proccess and an estimate of 5,000-10,000 makes it one of the most affected regions in Europe. Only by the early 18th century, with the Ilustration on the doors of Geneva, will the horrible massacre stop producing victims on the western side of the Alps.

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1490 }
offset = 150
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1700 }
action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME?" #Burn the heretics!
command = { type = population which = 388 value = -200 } #Bern
command = { type = population which = 1612 value = -200 } #Schwyz
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 4 value = -1 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }

action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME?" #Be lenient with the misguided sheep
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 4 value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 1 }

}
}
 
Last edited:
As I see it witchhunting was often done against the wishes of the pope and the italian roman church by local authorities that were guided more by greed, lower human instincts (that bitch did not want me - she must be a witch! or if she´s a witch I get half her possessions) or the desire to satisfy some superstitious peasant mob (sure, burn her SHE must be responsible that the cows gave sour milk or the crop failed).

Sorry, didn't see the against.

:wacko:
 
I'm very sorry for this spammin, but things are coming to my mind, and I believe it's important.
Witch-hunting was, of course, related to malleficium (that bitch rejected me, I want her possesions ), but as the 15th century evolved, the upper classes started to believe in a conspiracy (as I said, related to previous attacks to jews and lepers in Souther France, see Philip V of France reign). They tried witches not only on peasants accusations (that were of course, the oil that started the fire) but on certain behaviors. It's frequent to hear of witch proccess started because of insults to God, of certain pagan practices among simple peasants. Carlo Guinzburg has studied the subject concluding (I don't agree with him, thou) that chamanism was still present in Europe at that time, and that what the Inquisitors (both clergy and civilians) found that track and tried to erradicate it from the society.
Witch-hunting wasn't possible until the intelectuals started to believe in it, and formed civil courts. Malleficium was mainly a peasants issue (the milk is rotten, that old lady is preparing some strange potions) but what made it legally punible was the fact, and this is very importante to understand, that a pact with the Demon, the Sabbath, was necesary to be condemned.
 
Ígneo said:
I have reduced the sum of the population halved, thou I want to state that 10,000 people burned in Switzerland must have been quite a large percentage of the population (because of the phenomena).
Then you could have more than 1 event, for example for Switzerland one in the first hundred years of historical witchhunts that give -250 and another 100 years later? That would help to show the player that witchhunts were an ongoing process over many, many years and not some one-time event in history.

To answer your last suggestion, I would say I don't like contrafactual history. But I say that if the Swiss Cantons were to have conquered Vaud (wich was the origin of witch-hunting and one of the most affected regions), we can't be sure how the history would've developed there. Why not a big and powerful swiss state that forbids witch-hunting?
I did not say that Switzerland could not forbid witch-hunting. I wanted to say that in a game you can´t be sure that Switzerland actually OWNS Zürich. They might lose Zürich in some war and gain other provinces in other wars. So the command to lose population in Zürich if the event triggers will have no effect because Switzerland might not own the province. Using -1 means that a random province, that is owned by that country, is hit by the population loss and not a specific province.

It would look like:
command = { type = population which = -1 value = -200 } #random owned province

I also consider that Calvinism should be added as increasing factor of witch-hunting. YES, Calvinism also prosecuted witches and even with more religious zeal than the Catholics.

Dealing with it, I would like to propose an event describing Calvin stay in Geneva (I think there is none) and the conservative effect that both he and Zwingli had on Geneva and Zurich, but Switzerland in general, providing a -1 innovativeness.
There is an event about Calvin in the AGCEEP mod (event HEL 20308).
 
Last edited:
Thanks a lot for your help and your useful suggestions, ConjurerDragon. I think this is how the events would look like. Of course, a revision to the description is highly recommended.

#(1490) Witch-hunting in Switzerland
#by Ígneo
event = {
id = ?
random = no
country = HEL
name = "EVENTNAME?" #Witch-hunting in Switzerland
desc = "EVENTHIST?"
#-#Medieval Inquisition tried a large number of witches, but collective witch-hunting was a exclusive modern phenomena. Individual melleficium was not uncommon in lots of rural areas, but the scholastic demonology science didn't develop until the end of the 14th century, relating witchs and conspiracy gatherings that were supervised by Satan himself. This conspiracy paranoia can track its roots as far as the first Jew and Leper massacre of the High Middle Ages, when thousands were slaughtered by crusaders. But it's on the early 15th century when demonological thories become fully accepted by the upper classes. The two Councils of Constanze and Basel are the birth of the first work that directly connects malleficium and demonology. The work of Johannes Nider, the Formicarius, is a masterpiece of scholastic demonology and marks a new era in the witch-hunting period. The work of Heinrich Kramer, the Malleus Maleficarum (the Hammer of the Wicked) is the first work that reaches a widespread attention in the subject, and works as a inquisitorial manual for witch-hunters. But it's not Church who tries the most in Modern Ages. On the contrary, Civil Courst are responsible for 85%-90% of the executions. Switzerland is home to the first witch-hunting proccess and an estimate of 5,000-10,000 makes it one of the most affected regions in Europe. Only by the early 18th century, with the Ilustration on the doors of Geneva, will the horrible massacre stop producing victims on the western side of the Alps.

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1490 }
offset = 150
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1600 }
action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME?" #Burn the heretics!
command = { type = population which = 388 value = -150 } #Bern
command = { type = population which = -1 value = -100 } #random owned province
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 4 value = -1 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }

action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME?" #Be lenient with the misguided sheep
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 4 value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 1 }

}
}

#(1600) Witch-hunting in Switzerland
#by Ígneo
event = {
id = ?
random = no
country = HEL
name = "EVENTNAME?" #Witch-hunting in Switzerland
desc = "EVENTHIST?"
#-#Medieval Inquisition tried a large number of witches, but collective witch-hunting was a exclusive modern phenomena. Individual melleficium was not uncommon in lots of rural areas, but the scholastic demonology science didn't develop until the end of the 14th century, relating witchs and conspiracy gatherings that were supervised by Satan himself. This conspiracy paranoia can track its roots as far as the first Jew and Leper massacre of the High Middle Ages, when thousands were slaughtered by crusaders. But it's on the early 15th century when demonological thories become fully accepted by the upper classes. The two Councils of Constanze and Basel are the birth of the first work that directly connects malleficium and demonology. The work of Johannes Nider, the Formicarius, is a masterpiece of scholastic demonology and marks a new era in the witch-hunting period. The work of Heinrich Kramer, the Malleus Maleficarum (the Hammer of the Wicked) is the first work that reaches a widespread attention in the subject, and works as a inquisitorial manual for witch-hunters. But it's not Church who tries the most in Modern Ages. On the contrary, Civil Courst are responsible for 85%-90% of the executions. Switzerland is home to the first witch-hunting proccess and an estimate of 5,000-10,000 makes it one of the most affected regions in Europe. Only by the early 18th century, with the Ilustration on the doors of Geneva, will the horrible massacre stop producing victims on the western side of the Alps.

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1600 }
offset = 150
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1700 }
action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME?" #Burn the heretics!
command = { type = population which = 388 value = -150 } #Bern
command = { type = population which = -1 value = -100 } #random owned province
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 4 value = -1 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }

action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME?" #Be lenient with the misguided sheep
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 4 value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 1 }

}
}
 
I'm still not convinced innovative is a good idea. it is -2 for AI Switerland most of the time. is it realistic for such country and for such kind of event?

I'd prefer a loss in trade and infra.
 
I agree. Maybe the innovative minus can be switched to a Calvin event I have proposed for the AGC-EEP. You might want to see it at the Switzerland thread. I have proposed and modified an event there. That way we can preserve Switzerland from too many hit points.

Losses in trade and infra wouldn't be accurate though. So I propose leaving the event(s) with that modification. No innovative value changed, but the loss of population, the stability up and the revolt risk reduced.

What do you say?
 
Ígneo said:
I agree. Maybe the innovative minus can be switched to a Calvin event I have proposed for the AGC-EEP. You might want to see it at the Switzerland thread. I have proposed and modified an event there. That way we can preserve Switzerland from too many hit points.

Losses in trade and infra wouldn't be accurate though. So I propose leaving the event(s) with that modification. No innovative value changed, but the loss of population, the stability up and the revolt risk reduced.

What do you say?

Losses in trade and infra are very similar to innovative -1.

That is because going less innovative and more narrowminded raises the cost to reach the next tech level. And paying more for the next techlevel (in every tech) is very similar to losing an amount of tech in infra and trade.
 
ConjurerDragon said:
Losses in trade and infra are very similar to innovative -1.

That is because going less innovative and more narrowminded raises the cost to reach the next tech level. And paying more for the next techlevel (in every tech) is very similar to losing an amount of tech in infra and trade.

OK, I understand ConjurerDragon. What I'm saying it's that it won't be necessary to 'punish' Switzerland with -1 innovative as long as that is included in a reform of Calvin's event. I repeat that I consider that modification of great importance, because Geneva and all Switzerland changed a lot after he and Zwingli stay. It wasn't until after the Thirty Years War 1618-1648 and Westhphalia that Switzerland turned into something similar to what we know today: a neutral oasis, innovative and (till the last elections) tolerant with minorities. :(
 
ConjurerDragon said:
Losses in trade and infra are very similar to innovative -1.

That is because going less innovative and more narrowminded raises the cost to reach the next tech level. And paying more for the next techlevel (in every tech) is very similar to losing an amount of tech in infra and trade.
Yes but innovative -1 is permanent for AI. Loss of intra and trade is only temporary and for both player and AI.

@Ígneo: I saw the other event for Switzerland. Nothing to say about it.