if martin luther is elected pope then there doesn't seem to be any events leading to other nations going protestant activated, surely this should be rectified?
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Absolutely.
Eventually.
mikl is the main player in this part of the mod and he has simply been too busy of late. new job, some work on the side (he's an architect), organising a local tyouth writer's festival, three children. Doesn't leave much time to take a dump, let alone work on Interregnum.
That said, here is what we will eventually have for you.
The Martin Luther who is Pope will be changed to stay catholic. Instead, he will continue to bring in reforms. His big plan will be to get rid of the HRE and will position his support to make it happen. This is too much for the Wittelsbachs (and some others). Near the end of his time as Pope (he is ailing and sure to die) the Bavarians begin to angle to get their man, a conservative, elected as pope. Luther has his own reformist, anti-HRE heir aparent.
Luther dies, the conservative cardinals meets in Leipzig and elected the conservative Pope, the reformers meet in Rome and elected to the reformer. The church splits. The Protestant pope emerges, the Catholics have their own man in Bavaria. The reformation has hit a generation later, but will affect those countries not normally affected by it, like the Iberians, Italians and Eire. Which Pope will you follow? The one that 'feels' right ( the conservative one in Germany) or the one that has more legitimacy ( the reformer in Rome ).
We'll get to it.
Eventually.
mikl is the main player in this part of the mod and he has simply been too busy of late. new job, some work on the side (he's an architect), organising a local tyouth writer's festival, three children. Doesn't leave much time to take a dump, let alone work on Interregnum.
That said, here is what we will eventually have for you.
The Martin Luther who is Pope will be changed to stay catholic. Instead, he will continue to bring in reforms. His big plan will be to get rid of the HRE and will position his support to make it happen. This is too much for the Wittelsbachs (and some others). Near the end of his time as Pope (he is ailing and sure to die) the Bavarians begin to angle to get their man, a conservative, elected as pope. Luther has his own reformist, anti-HRE heir aparent.
Luther dies, the conservative cardinals meets in Leipzig and elected the conservative Pope, the reformers meet in Rome and elected to the reformer. The church splits. The Protestant pope emerges, the Catholics have their own man in Bavaria. The reformation has hit a generation later, but will affect those countries not normally affected by it, like the Iberians, Italians and Eire. Which Pope will you follow? The one that 'feels' right ( the conservative one in Germany) or the one that has more legitimacy ( the reformer in Rome ).
We'll get to it.
that sounds cool! however what will happen to the teutonic order (die hard catholics) and union of kalmar and northern germans (usually die hard protestants) will they flip too? and of course what of reform religion? Maybe the reformed should represent "conventional" protestantism in the north (i.e denying all popes) and everywhere else
There will be five groups:
1. Die-hard conservatives
These countries will not get an option to go protestant, they will back the conservative pope. Teutonic Order, Bavaria, Brandenburg.
2. Die-hard reformists
Papal states, assuming they exist, or province 399.
3. Action_a conservative, action_b reform
Iberian minors, some german minors like Sachsen, catholic Halych-Volhynia, certain dynasties for Kalmar, Brittany and Savoy, Sicily and Wales.
4. Action_a reform, action_b conservative
All other nations and dynastic iterations except ...
5. Eire
Torn between loyalty to the Pope and in Rome and strong tendency towards conservatism. This will be very tough on Eire and it will get a 50-50 style event.
Hope this tantalises you.
1. Die-hard conservatives
These countries will not get an option to go protestant, they will back the conservative pope. Teutonic Order, Bavaria, Brandenburg.
2. Die-hard reformists
Papal states, assuming they exist, or province 399.
3. Action_a conservative, action_b reform
Iberian minors, some german minors like Sachsen, catholic Halych-Volhynia, certain dynasties for Kalmar, Brittany and Savoy, Sicily and Wales.
4. Action_a reform, action_b conservative
All other nations and dynastic iterations except ...
5. Eire
Torn between loyalty to the Pope and in Rome and strong tendency towards conservatism. This will be very tough on Eire and it will get a 50-50 style event.
Hope this tantalises you.
pretty cool, but there are two froms of protestantism, where will the extra be used, and which will represent the pope? sounds pretty cool either way, an easy way to code it (if you want the entire pop to convert) is to just have an event with fifty randomly provinces get converted (i.e use the tag -1 for convert, and you could have it trigger like a huge event for all catholics except nations x (those you mentioned) it wouldn't be too difficult to implement
We haven't decided yet about reformed. I think it on't happen, as there is no protestantism per se, the Church reforms itself.
You could have calvin come along and say, "We don't want to follow either of you!" this would particularly fit the hansa who (probably) dislike the centralised nature of the church, they could possibly start up the reformed church with their sort of free spirit in mind
Yes.
I went to play soccer after posting that and thought about the reformation once more. (Scored five times, set up four others and our team won 11 games straight, so it must have helped).
I think that while the reforming of the church ought to take most of the 'steam' out of the anti-papist thread of the reformation, there is still some room for breaking with Rome, taking reforms further and separating church and state.
I think that Calvin doesn't happen, unless maybe he's the successor to Luther.
Reformed religion needs to be a little smaller and the best place for it to begin would be in Scotland with its leader being John Knox.
Matty
I went to play soccer after posting that and thought about the reformation once more. (Scored five times, set up four others and our team won 11 games straight, so it must have helped).
I think that while the reforming of the church ought to take most of the 'steam' out of the anti-papist thread of the reformation, there is still some room for breaking with Rome, taking reforms further and separating church and state.
I think that Calvin doesn't happen, unless maybe he's the successor to Luther.
Reformed religion needs to be a little smaller and the best place for it to begin would be in Scotland with its leader being John Knox.
Matty
deffinetely, though other groups at the fringes should also be considered, while scotland is certainly one, the hansa I think wouldn't want to go along with anyone, also the maya (if they convert to christianity) should probably go reformed (or given the option to) as they probably wouldn't want any sort of papal control either, I can't really think of anyone elsewho are as much on the fringes, perhaps kalmar or norway,, also maybe the conservatives should set up a "anti papacy", similiar to the one set up in avignon in 1300s, also we should certainly consider what should happen if rome is retaken by conservatives, perhaps the protestants should flee and set up there own anti papacy somewhere else (so many anti-papacies!)
All,
I am more than happy with the thoughts noted here (and after a lengthy absence what choice do I have !
), with the exception of the time delay between Luther becoming Pope, and the central western church becoming Protestant.
The idea is that Luther was a strong character, and would only have entered into the senior levels of the church hierarchy if:
a) he agreed with most of their policies, which implies accepting it's liturgy and faith and,
b) the cardinals agreed with him.
So in terms of game mechanics, for Luther to be a senior Cardinal or Pope, the church must be so reformed, that it can be called, Protestant. And since most states and princes acccept Rome's authority, they are all alomost all protestant too.
Except for TO, Bavaria, Brandenburg, Poland, etc, who are outraged at the continuing reforms, and revisions to their Mass, and then, towards the end of Luther's life, as his authority weakens, they push for Counter Reform.
At his death, it appears that there will be too many cardinals voting for a contiuation of the lutheran church direction in Rome, and that's when the Wittelsbachs attempt to vote and support an Anti-pope in Leipzig.
What do you think?
I am more than happy with the thoughts noted here (and after a lengthy absence what choice do I have !
), with the exception of the time delay between Luther becoming Pope, and the central western church becoming Protestant.The idea is that Luther was a strong character, and would only have entered into the senior levels of the church hierarchy if:
a) he agreed with most of their policies, which implies accepting it's liturgy and faith and,
b) the cardinals agreed with him.
So in terms of game mechanics, for Luther to be a senior Cardinal or Pope, the church must be so reformed, that it can be called, Protestant. And since most states and princes acccept Rome's authority, they are all alomost all protestant too.
Except for TO, Bavaria, Brandenburg, Poland, etc, who are outraged at the continuing reforms, and revisions to their Mass, and then, towards the end of Luther's life, as his authority weakens, they push for Counter Reform.
At his death, it appears that there will be too many cardinals voting for a contiuation of the lutheran church direction in Rome, and that's when the Wittelsbachs attempt to vote and support an Anti-pope in Leipzig.
What do you think?
any thoughts about breakaway fations to fill the reformed slot, maybe the scots and/or hansa?
Don_Quigleone said:
Well, after a fair bit of reading on the Reformation, it appears that Calvinisn is a much a political messaage as eddleseastical. His ideas could only take root in a pseudo-republic like switzerland IRL. Within this game, I expect Calvin to be welcomed by Hansa, and his ideas to flourish there, but those ideas to take hold in places like Scotland and Genoa.
I don't see why not, though others say it isn't possible cause the irish were inherently catholic, but I live in irish and am fairly certain that the Irish only remained firm because of the brits, they could conceivably try and go independent from the established churches
mikl said:All,
I am more than happy with the thoughts noted here (and after a lengthy absence what choice do I have !
The idea is that Luther was a strong character, and would only have entered into the senior levels of the church hierarchy if:
a) he agreed with most of their policies, which implies accepting it's liturgy and faith and,
b) the cardinals agreed with him.
So in terms of game mechanics, for Luther to be a senior Cardinal or Pope, the church must be so reformed, that it can be called, Protestant. And since most states and princes acccept Rome's authority, they are all alomost all protestant too.
Except for TO, Bavaria, Brandenburg, Poland, etc, who are outraged at the continuing reforms, and revisions to their Mass, and then, towards the end of Luther's life, as his authority weakens, they push for Counter Reform.
At his death, it appears that there will be too many cardinals voting for a contiuation of the lutheran church direction in Rome, and that's when the Wittelsbachs attempt to vote and support an Anti-pope in Leipzig.
What do you think?
I think we need to untangle some terms here.
The church is never protestant, it is always Catholic, whatever its policies, liturgy and level of corruption is. It's just the Catholic Church.
If there is no protestant reformation as in the RW, then the term Protestant becomes somewhat meaningless.
We need to remember that Catholic, Protestant and Reformed are our in-game mechanics, not actual monolithic and static religions.
Having the Catholic Church use the Protestant game tag only makes sense if it does so 'in-opposition' to something, presumably a church/churches which are more conservative/traditional and for whom the tag Catholic makes more sense. Because changing the tag, rather than just saying that the Church has reformed itself, means a LOT of administrative work, events and in-game effects.
We still have another option. Catholic stays Catholic, and the breakaway conservatives in Bavaria use the Protestant tag. It makes sense: they are the ones who are protesting something, and are the oppositional minority opposed to the official Pope in Rome.
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yeah I know what you mean, we(or I) were using the term rather loosely, the problem with bavaria and what not using protestantism is that the ingame effects (lower stab etc...) would efect conservatives not reformers , which is a bit ridiculous, hence here's a simple way of defining religion in alternative reformation(actually I think alternative reformation should be made default...)
1. protestants (not actually protestants, the reformed catholic church)
2. catholics (conservatives, possibly forming there own anti papacy)
3. reformed (breakaway churches deciding completely for themselves and owing allegiance to no one)
4.(optional) counterreformers are the conservatives and catholics are apathetic nations and/or real catholic church
If you like the confusion could be resolved (with regard to names) by getting rid of the traditional reformation and then completely renaming everything, after all interegnum is all about whatifs and the reformation happening like in history isn't in the spirit of it in my opinion, then again interegnum is all about options as well, so you'd have to really decide what to do... but are the above definitions correct at the moment?
1. protestants (not actually protestants, the reformed catholic church)
2. catholics (conservatives, possibly forming there own anti papacy)
3. reformed (breakaway churches deciding completely for themselves and owing allegiance to no one)
4.(optional) counterreformers are the conservatives and catholics are apathetic nations and/or real catholic church
If you like the confusion could be resolved (with regard to names) by getting rid of the traditional reformation and then completely renaming everything, after all interegnum is all about whatifs and the reformation happening like in history isn't in the spirit of it in my opinion, then again interegnum is all about options as well, so you'd have to really decide what to do... but are the above definitions correct at the moment?
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Lets just get rid of most of the religious stat modifiers. These are all based on the RW in hindsight, not on our revised history. And we can reproduce 'conservatism' through shifts in DP sliders. When the Catholic church refoms itself it gets increases in Innovative, reducations in Aristocracy and Serfdom.
When the spilt happens, those countries which stay with Rome get these shifts too, while the conservatives all get Innovative -1.
That way we don't need to worry about the 'effects' of being protestant etc, which are based on the RW history.
When the spilt happens, those countries which stay with Rome get these shifts too, while the conservatives all get Innovative -1.
That way we don't need to worry about the 'effects' of being protestant etc, which are based on the RW history.
You're probably right, but I'd just eliminate the differences between western rite christianity, let the others religions keep differences, however if you eliminate differences in christianity what incentive is there for the player to go protestant?
Don_Quigleone said:
Well, there are a couple. First, if you are German, you extricate yourself somewhat from the cluthes of the Bavarian-dominated HRE.
Second, it means you are no longer share the true faith with Catholics, so that eliniates the stab hit when you DoW.
There is a cash incentive for going protestant, and you no longer get certain random events.
I think that we could keep some of the stats: maybe the bonus to production for Protestant and the bonus to Stability for Catholic?
Matty
All,
I understand where you are coming from, by naming the Catholic Church the Catholic Church, even it is transformed by luthers writings and personality.
But his was an essentially different look at christianity, which (and I summarise here) emphasized faith over idolatry. The two ways of faith were different enough then to create wars, and were attractive to different cultures.
Thus the in-game modifiers are essential identifiers for the differences in christian worship. Protestantism was called protestatntism because they were initially associated with protest, but it was a very different interpretation of the bible to that of the leading Roman Catholic popes of the time. They were however not neccesarily more 'conservative". Actually, in many regards, less so. And both religions - after the Thirty Years war - were equal in stability.
I would argue that catholic faith is retained by Bavaria/Brandenburg/Poland/TO because they retain a more traditional (less educated?) view of their faith. But with Luther, the church becomes (in-game) protestant. This is important, and it's important that the in-game modifiers stay. The 200 ducat bonus for become Protestant is - however - no longer correct, but I understand this to be something we cannot revise.
I understand where you are coming from, by naming the Catholic Church the Catholic Church, even it is transformed by luthers writings and personality.
But his was an essentially different look at christianity, which (and I summarise here) emphasized faith over idolatry. The two ways of faith were different enough then to create wars, and were attractive to different cultures.
Thus the in-game modifiers are essential identifiers for the differences in christian worship. Protestantism was called protestatntism because they were initially associated with protest, but it was a very different interpretation of the bible to that of the leading Roman Catholic popes of the time. They were however not neccesarily more 'conservative". Actually, in many regards, less so. And both religions - after the Thirty Years war - were equal in stability.
I would argue that catholic faith is retained by Bavaria/Brandenburg/Poland/TO because they retain a more traditional (less educated?) view of their faith. But with Luther, the church becomes (in-game) protestant. This is important, and it's important that the in-game modifiers stay. The 200 ducat bonus for become Protestant is - however - no longer correct, but I understand this to be something we cannot revise.