Women in sengoku

[James_Manring]

Why cannot women with a very high martial stat (15 or above) become a general or Kukojin? Albeit extremely rare, this would be historically accurate as women were samurai and did fight in more than just defensive battles. I would not allow a woman to become a clan leader by a vote or a Daimyo by petition. She can only do so if she is able to declare and win a civil war or take a title by force of arms. The only exception would be a clan leader without a male heir, but with a qualifying female adult heir. He could then designate her to be "samurai equivalent" and select her as the clan heir. She could then inherit the clan, but with a very high probability of a pretender civil war. Like I said these cases were extremely rare, and I do not believe they would be accepted with more than a tacit accord by the other courts after her sword is put to their neck.

I would also like to know why unwed adult daughters do not get education or the ability to serve as a courtier for their father. It would be nice to have the ability to assign a daughter with a stat above 15 as a master. If she is better than your courtiers it would make sense, and should give some kind of a malus. Perhaps a large drop in relation to the courtier that was replaced and a revolt risk malus for a few years. It would be much more easily accepted than letting your daughters lead your armies.

 

[ColBlimp]

I dont know if its my imagination but im sure ive seen a number of women commanders leading armies and defending cities in my games.

 

[unmerged(85988)]

in history, Japan was the same as the other culture. No women leader in normal condition. But, there were some case that deny that rule. Sometime, They could arise and lead the clan or an army. But, they were not just ordinary women; just a few of the best of them.

Maybe we could let a few woman to arise in the game, but not all of them. A trait maybe? like Tomboy? This trait should be special and can only be given when a girl is born in the game, and it is rare. By then, the girl would be able to learn like their counterpart (boy) and become a warrior of the clan

As women who lead a clan, it's always the same. They are the previous clan leader wife. When the husband died in battle and has no heir / the heir still a kid (and the woman has strong influence in the clan) she can arose as the clan leader. But still her child will become the heir. She would lead the clan until she died, after that her husband child will replace her. Of course, this clan leader won't be able to remarry, as her strongest power is her position as the late clan leader wife. without that, she won't be able to become the clan leader.

Still, you need to give some condition to these event to be happen. She should be the first wife of her husband, and her influence on the court is great, plus her husband died before the heir reach an age of 16.

 

[James_Manring]

I thought that the requirement of a high martial stat (15 or above) would make the woman rare enough. Tomboy might also be a good trait to give to the woman after she decides to live the life of a leader.

 

[Captain Gars]

I dont know if its my imagination but im sure ive seen a number of women commanders leading armies and defending cities in my games.

They can't lead armies, but they are able to defend a castle in the case of a siege. So having a wife with high martial stat can be very advantageous.

 

[delra]

Those chicks are a real bane of attackers by the way. Every second girl in the game goes up to 10 in Martial - which makes me wonder where they learn to defend castles so efficiently. Sometimes looking at stats of my Daymios I wish their wives took their armies over...

Shouldn't being a woman affect the growth of Martial in a very negative way?

 

[Hister]

Shouldn't being a woman affect the growth of Martial in a very negative way?

Yes, men should be on average better in martial things then women so this is something to be fixed by the devs.

 

[marktse]

You may remove the limitation from common/job_titles.txt

 

[Tatsunoshi]

The game as is does a pretty good job of giving women the roles they historically occupied in Japanese history, particularly in the Sengoku era where many of the legal rights and relative freedom they had in the Heian/Kamakura eras had been eroded. In fact, I think it does give them far too much credit for martial skill, but I figured this just reflects the added skill of advisors their husband left or that they brought along from their old family. Most women of the buke class received 'basic training' in self defense with weapons, but for the most part it was on the level of karate training Japanese schoolgirls get in phys ed class today. No doubt there were some that took it further, particularly in the late Heian/Kamakura eras, but the only reliable account of a woman taking part in a field battle wasn't even a member of the warrior class-she was a shrine maiden (the much storied Tomoe Gozen was almost certainly a myth-no mention of her in any contemporary account). There are LOTS of accounts of women being active in the defense of a castle (EVERYONE in the castle was expected to aid in the defence, even young children and the elderly), but even then their role was normally limited to support services (cooking, medical care, loading guns, preparing enemy heads for viewing, or just standing in as the symbol to rally around when the lord was away) rather than being directly involved in combat.

The role of women in premodern Japanese history is a specialty of mine, and anyone who wants to learn a bit more can check out the review I did on Turnbull's unfortunately titled 'Samurai Women' book.

 

[Hister]

So you do find women war stats too high - DEVS IT'S TIME YOU FIX THIS for the next patch.

 

[delra]

So you do find women war stats too high - DEVS IT'S TIME YOU FIX THIS for the next patch.

Before women notice they are tougher. ;-)

 

[Ordo Impavidus]

Before women notice they are tougher. ;-)

As tough as they are allowed to be.

Let us not forget how (or why) women of the modern civilized world have been given equal status.

 

[unmerged(212811)]

As tough as they are allowed to be.

Let us not forget how (or why) women of the modern civilized world have been given equal status.

Why is every single one of your posts so overtly sexist?

 

[unmerged(14719)]

Culturally, Asian philosophy does not allow Women to lead. It takes that rare individual to overcome not only traditional challenges but her limitations imposed by society to rise above societal expectations. Japan had these rare individuals but none were able to attain what this woman did.

Both Chinese and Japanese culture to this day still keep the good woman down. For the Japanese, it's very very hard for women to progress. I have a friend, who can speak 5 languages, with a Masters, MBA, etc, etc worked as this for years in a Japanese firm, namely because of a very traditional boss. She finally gave up, and moved to the States to work for the UN. I knew this other Korean girl, well educated, with a Bachelors, Masters and able to speak 4 languages (Korean, English, Mandarin and French) whose entire sole existence in the company was to keep the bed warm for the boss and carry his cigarettes. Apparently he had one in every country he had business dealings in.

For the Chinese, this woman justifies why women should not take political positions.

So given the cultural norms, worries, etc to this very day, very few women in Asia has been able to take a leading political position, let alone in the Sengoku era.

 

[James_Manring]

So basically what you are saying is that the system is right as it is? Well then what would you suggest to improve the use of women in the game? Would you like to select which wife will be the commander of a castle? I sure would!

 

[chatnoir17]

There was a discussion about this topic.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?524409-The-role-of-Women

Culturally, Asian philosophy does not allow Women to lead. It takes that rare individual to overcome not only traditional challenges but her limitations imposed by society to rise above societal expectations. Japan had these rare individuals but none were able to attain what this woman did.

I can't simply say Japanese women were not allowed to lead the society in present and past because of their cultural reason. Well, maybe women have less chances thant men in the modern society and in the middle ages, but how in the 15th and 16th centuries? You have not given us any examples about the Sengoku Jidai.

Back to the topic of OP, I think more events about wives and daughters are good enough to represent Japanese women in that era. Sengoku could focus more on family stories.

 

[James_Manring]

Would having your daughters educated make sense? If they had a certain value, say above 15 for a stat could they be used as a master? If martial was above 20 would you support letting a daughter become a general?

 

[chatnoir17]

I think daughters or not married women didn't have big influence. Of course they could have been some kind of advisors, but their roll (represented by wife bonus) was not the same as three masters or generals in game.
For me, a female landholder or general saying nothing to my character is less impressive than a woman apearing many times in events with my character.

 

[James_Manring]

Ah.. so you think that unmarried daughters should get events and hold some kind of minor titles?

 

[chatnoir17]

Ah.. so you think that unmarried daughters should get events and hold some kind of minor titles?

I'm not sure about your minor titles, but in my Genpei mod, I have added education events for daughters.