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Kretoxian

Anon, we are legion
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Oct 12, 2005
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I had an idea about an alternate outcome of ww2 based on a parcial axis victory.

It all starts when Franco decided to join the Axis, and later, Hitler decided to not invade the USSR and respect the Molotov Ribbentrop pact.

Germany concentrated heavily on defeating the UK in North Africa and succeded in conquering Egypt and Sudan and eventualy they linked with Italian Ethiopia.

After that the frontlines halted around the African Equator circle of latitude, staying the frontlines like this:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The mod starts in 1966 and, the old colonial powers, having to face the rising independentist movements, resulted in many cases (like in Belgian Congo, or French Gabon) where the Head of State was the old colonial ruler (King of Belgiun in Congo or French President in Gabon) but the rest (or a big part of it) was left to local politicians.

In Madagascar, after pressures of the Jews, they stablished a state, however, the Allied powers gave away under the German pressures and forced that state to be absolutely neutral and isolacionist. However, the rulers of this country, seem that they not agree very much...

As you can see in the map, the wining powers of this unended war, held a very diferent policy on how to deal with these independentist governments, opting for the military control and defeat instead of negotiation.

In Europe:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

as you can see, Germany, and in minor degree Italy are the big winners of the war, Germany controls the Reichskommisariat of Belgium, Reichskommisariat of Neherlands, the Kingdom of Denmark, the Reichskommisariat of Norway, the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and Slovakia as puppets, whle, Vichy France (which changed his name to "National Republic of France") hold part of the continental France (except for Alsace-Lorraine, Corsica, Tunisia, parts of south eastern France which went to Italy and the region of Oran which went to Spain).

Italy, made true his dream of controlling the mediterranean and, as you can see in the map above, their puppets are Montenegro, the Principality of Pindus, the Italian protectorate of Egypt and the Italian Protectorate of Palestine, in middle east.

Other Axis nations, like Hungary or Bulgaria expanded beyond their initial borders.

The USSR didn't give up their expansionist aspirations and conquered Finland, instauring a puppet regime (known as the Finnish Democratic Republic) and later, after the cease fire, they went to invade Turkey (kinda like Korean war OTL) finishing the war with the partition of that country in two, one backed by the Axis and the other one by the Soviets.

In Syria declared independence the Arab Kingdom of Syria (based on the 1920 one) with the Italian approval in order to have a puppet controlling the area. This leaded eventualy to the coup in Iraq (the 1941 one, only that in this timeline it happen later)
Persia, at the start of the scenario is divided in three factions, inmersed in a bloody civil war between communists (backed by the USSR, north), fundamentalists (backed tacitly by the Axis) and the south eastern one, the kingdom of Persia, which is Pro British (in fact the HoS is still the Shah)

In Oman, there was an anti British fundamentalist coup d'etat which caused the invasion of Abu Dabhi and the consiguient seizure by British Forces of the Musandam Governorate in order to stablish a port where they could organizate an evacuation of the British residents in the area. However, after seizuring it, they stayed, and built an aeronaval base in order to control the north western Indian Ocean.

Asia:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Japan conquered most of China making KMT to surrender, the communist party of China asked USSR for help, which they agreed in exchange of some territories in Xibei San Ma. The Soviet help proved very helpful for the communists, they managed to stop Japanese advance towards inland, however they realized that, after Japanese victory in Burma, that they had another weak points, Bhutan where they made a coup d'etat to control it, and to rise heavy fortifications. They also occupied the Indian province of Gangtok just to fortify themselves from the Japanese puppet states.

Japan did not wage war against USA and instead of that they concentrated on European lands of Asia being stoped only in the half of India.
Fortunately for the British, after advancing into India they agreed for a cease fire before the invasion of Australia.

South America:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Everything like in OTL except for that state you see there, it's the Pan German South American State and it's a state formed by the German diasphora in South America and backed by Germany (kinda like Israel OTL).

North America stays the same, just with Greenland occupied by Canada.

I'll develop backstory later, now let's go with what have been done:
-Initial map (although is not set in stone, it's subject to changes)
-flags

What's needed:
-Tech Tree - I need ideas to develop this, look at the year, my idea is to have Brigades instead of Divisions and individual subs and destroyers.
-Events - I've already thought about some, like the Iraqi civil war between communists and Royalists (the German Vietnam), another one where Che Guevara centers his efforts in Peru, forcing the USA to face some kind of Vietnam like war, where they eventualy loose it, making Peru and it's surrounding countries, Ecuador and Bolivia communists, the death of Hitler and of course the WW3.
-Graphics - Any need here is appreciated.
-Ministers - Specially right wing/nazi ones.

In case you're wondering, the sides are like this:

Axis: Germany, Italy, French National Republic, Reichskommisariats of Belgium, Holland and Norway, Denmark, Spain, Croatia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Pindus, Italian protectorate of Greece, Turkish National Republic and Italian Mandate of Palestine.

Allies: United Kingdom, Iceland, Canada, South Africa, Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland, Belgian Kingdom of the Congo, French Gabonese Republic, Dominion of Tanganyka, Federation of Kenya and Uganda (these two are some kind of British answer to independentist movements of those countries), Pakista, Kashmir, West India, Australia and New Zealand. --> Called DETO (Democracy Enforcement Treaty Organization)

Comintern: USSR, Finnish Democratic Republic, East Turkey, Mongolia and Cuba (this one just joined) --> BTW this side is named "Pact of Helsinki"

Japanese Sphere: Japan, Manchukuo, Mengkukuo, China-Nanjing, East Indies Kingdom, Kingdom of Malaya, Thailand (which is the only nation of the sphere that's not a puppet, because she allied with Japan), Kingdom of Cambodia, Kingdom of Annan, State of Burma and East India.
 
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How can you help? Answering these questions. (No modding skills required except for two of them)

-Should West Indies Federation be included? yes/no and most important, why
-How would you structurate the infantry and armour tech trees?
-Ministers, if you know about any minister that you think should be here, post it please
-Naval brigades, i need ideas about what to do with them, as i already said, i think that we need at least three CAG brigades, one being the traditional CAG (for carriers and supercarriers), another one a helicopter CAG (for helicopter carriers) and a last one which although it isn't a CAG in strict sense, it's a must have in my opinion, which are the naval scout/ASW helicopters embarked into frigates and corvettes mostly
-What to do with both battleships and naval transports, which ships could they represent? any ideas?
-Any other point that i forgot and you think it should be discused

And now for both of them requiring modding skills:
-I need someone making a pic for a new research category called 'helicopter design'
-Events!!!! <---- Self explanatory
 
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Looks very interesting, but unfortunately I have no modding skills whatsoever - but that doesn't mean I don't like it. No doubt I will download it once it's released :D
 
Looks like a very interesting idea for a mod! So, would the USA remain "a sleeping giant"? Britain loses it's Empire?... No Jewish State? (no World War 3?)...

Are you not going to end up with 5 factions, you seem to be ignoring the USA?. Would a nazi Germany have settled for what they had gained... YES, this IS AN INTERESTING mod...
 
According to the Vienna Diktat, Miercurea Ciuc should be a Hungarian province. Also, it is mainly inhabitated by Hungarian ethnics.

Thanks for pointing it, i've already corrected.

Looks like a very interesting idea for a mod! So, would the USA remain "a sleeping giant"? Britain loses it's Empire?... No Jewish State? (no World War 3?)...

Are you not going to end up with 5 factions, you seem to be ignoring the USA?. Would a nazi Germany have settled for what they had gained... YES, this IS AN INTERESTING mod...

Thanks for the compliments. Yes, the USA remains as some kind of sleeping giant worried more by the communism than nazism. There's a Jewish state in Madagascar, created by a treaty and due to the pressures of Jewish living in England (and, to a minor degree in the USA), being it very isolationist due to German pressures, anyway, despite of their constitutional agreement, they don't give up in various expansionist claims, like the Seychelles islands or Mauritius. And Britain still keeps parts of his empire, the caribbean islands, many islands in the Indian Ocean and, well, if you could see it that way, Australia and New Zealand are still part of the Commonwealth.
And yes, there's going to be a WW3, and without nuclear weapons, they only researched the nuclear energy only as a energy source, not as a weapon (because it failed miserably when it had to explode.)

MastahCheef117 said:
Looks very interesting, but unfortunately I have no modding skills whatsoever - but that doesn't mean I don't like it. No doubt I will download it once it's released

Thanks!
 
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I'm guessing USA will probably join the allies...
I really like this mod, and I will follow closely.
An event could be some sort of South American War, which would be Germany and the Pan German South American State vs. Brazil and Bolivia. With Argentina ready to back up both sides and US interest, considering US intervention in Peru....could be a potential area for WW3 to be provoked?
 
I'm guessing USA will probably join the allies...
I really like this mod, and I will follow closely.
An event could be some sort of South American War, which would be Germany and the Pan German South American State vs. Brazil and Bolivia. With Argentina ready to back up both sides and US interest, considering US intervention in Peru....could be a potential area for WW3 to be provoked?

I still have not think about the causes of ww3... in my mind, PRSA (Pangerman Republic of South America) is going to be a Israel like state ruled by Alfredo Strossner (Alfred Strossner), however if Che Guevara succes in Peru, then the domino effect will turn Ecuador, and probably Bolivia,into communists. Argentina, considering that the 28th June of 1966 had a militaristic coup d'etat... i see it closer to PRSA than DETO.

But there are other priorities now, like tech tree or ministers.
 
^^ If only i could find a flag for them...
 
Soviets attacking Finland for a second time is not possible with a persistent M-R pact, as Germany deliberately prohibited the Soviets from attacking Finland again after the Winter War. Very soon after that one Germany started grooming Finland to become its best friend number one, making secret weapons deals and gaining military access.

Had Germans not interfered USSR would have attacked Finland in summer 1940, when Germany was busy with France and UK. However if you are doing an alternate history based on preserved M-R Pact, a "second Winter War" should never take place and instead Finland should be independent, Paternal Autocrat and give military access to Germany.

Also, if WW2 is over and Finland is still attacked it would have caused massive response from Allies and sympathetic Fascists around the World. Furthermore, pacification of Finland would have required more than just a quick sweep as certain figures in Finnish military had elaborate resistance plans in motion, uncovered only years after WW2. The Finnish Democratic Republic's leaders, especially O.W. Kuusinen were vilified by most Finns and few if any took the exile Communist leaders seriously. Even after WW2 under Soviet pressure Communists never became a crucial actor in Finnish politics, and only a certain socialist party succeeded although AFAIK never gained majority in elections (nor they had any presidents nor prime ministers).

That said I don't understand why Finland always gets whacked in alternate history mods.
 
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DH already has General Government Poland, it's U44.

I see... what's it is based on? Does it have any historical ground?

Soviets attacking Finland for a second time is not possible with a persistent M-R pact, as Germany deliberately prohibited the Soviets from attacking Finland again after the Winter War. Very soon after that one Germany started grooming Finland to become its best friend number one, making secret weapons deals and gaining military access.

Had Germans not interfered USSR would have attacked Finland in summer 1940, when Germany was busy with France and UK.

Well, then i guess that M-R pact was also different in this timeline where they decided that countries under USSR sphere of influence were the baltic ones (EST, LAT, and LIT) and Finland.
 
This Mod looks pretty good i Got some Ideas:
Che Guevara should Unite the Latin (South American) World in to one Communistic Nation (Like In Armageddon/Abyss) to kick out german colonists.
Maybee a War in one of the German Colonies in Africa (like Vietnam).

Good Luck when you need historic Help for Germany ask me :D
 
This Mod looks pretty good i Got some Ideas:
Che Guevara should Unite the Latin (South American) World in to one Communistic Nation (Like In Armageddon/Abyss) to kick out german colonists.
Maybee a War in one of the German Colonies in Africa (like Vietnam).

Good Luck when you need historic Help for Germany ask me :D

Uhmmm Che uniting various countries? I don't see it. Ok that it's alternate history, but it has some limits...

I think that Iraq, asking for help to fight communists guerrillas (commanded by Saddam Hussein) to Germany and Italy is going to be a nice Vietnam for the Axis, besides, if the commies get the power in Iraq, then again the domino effect would start a civil war in Syria that could overthrown the government making it Arab socialist.

Notice that Nigeria is occupied by Germany, and what's Nigeria rich for? Petroleum, in fact it's the perfect example of a "petrostate" nowadays. That's why i think that another set of events could be something about the construction of an oil pipeline from Nigerian oilfields to Tripoli and to Algiers. Being the target of many independentist groups. (The Lybian one could be commanded by Gadafi...)

EDIT2: Could you german_engine suggest ministers for Germany? i already found a feasible pic of a very old Hitler (made by computer), which i'm using it. But besides that i've no idea about who could hold other ministers posts. (HoG, FM, AM, SM, HoMI, CoS, CoA, CoN and CoAA)

EDIT: Thanks ^_AC_^ , really, thank you very much!
 
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I can help with events if you kind of outline them to me :)
 
Thanks to both of you, now i think there are two priorities, tech tree and ministers, and both of them do not require any moding capability, just imagination. (In many cases, because in others, like in Spain, or Mexico among others the ministers are going to be the historical ones)

For example, who could be Mussolini's successor? (I know it was Pietro Badoglio, but he died in 1956) Or Hitler's one? (Karl Dönitz was very old in 1966, would he accept the post?)

As in the tech tree, i have something in mind... It would go from ww2 and post ww2 divisions to Brigades (remember that nowadays, in most of the world, the main fighting unit is the brigade, not the division), system that was implemented by the USA in the 60s.
 
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