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Your Opinion of Petain?

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fredinno

fredinno

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May 21, 2017
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Phillipe Petain is... controversial. Personally, I defend the dude- since Vichy France didn't really have a choice in what it did during WW2.

I think we needed both Petain and De Gaulle- because both tried to save France in different ways- one helped the French by protecting them from German Occupation, and another by saving France from overseas.
 

The Hero of Verdun.

Though as regards Vichy, really I think Petain's real influence there was traditional. Whilst the regime had fascist elements, Vichy was more than anything a defensive reaction, aimed at preserving the French state, and indeed, a vision of the French state that was in keeping with the traditional right-wing, paternalist, Catholic, agrarian, anti-semitic, standing army outlook of many on the French right and in the army in particular (Petain also brought a strong personal Anglophobe element). Calling Petain a hero for his actions in the Second World War is a rather dubious proposition, particularly given the involvement of Vichy in the Holocaust. Nor were his actions those of a 'scared old man' as I've heard some suggest. He was certainly standing up for France, or France as he imagined it, but to do so he was prepared to throw a lot under the bus.
 
As DoomBunny said, the Hero of Verdun. Like Hindenburg, he was a army man, somewhat old for his moment of glory, thus he belonged to other era: conservative, nationalist, "things as they should be".

I don't think he really saved France. France was invaded, his resources used by the invaders, their population used and killed by them and even become a battleground years later. Petain just thought they were fighting WW1 2.0, so all Germany would ask it 'd be a little frontier posts moving, nothing more. In fact, the Vichy regime allowed French fascist groups to have more power than they had ever dreamt of.
If Free France forces could make a lot of problem for Germany forces, just imagine if Petain haven't surrender half of his country (and the other half wasn't really as free). Heck, even the Vietnam war could have gone either way hadn't they allowed the Japanese to take French Indochina.

There is a documentary movie made of old French newsreels where Petain went from "Maréchal" to "traitor".

P.s: according to French Wiki, Marechal, nous voila is plagiarized from this movie song (written by a Jewish French).
Seems true.
 
Lamentable traitor.
 
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Kgw said:
the Vietnam war could have gone either way hadn't they allowed the Japanese to take French Indochina.
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What could they have done in your opinion agaisnt Japan ? They barely managed to fend of Siam.
 
My opinion is worthless on Pétain.

Generally speaking, the French when Pétain was alive were relatively indulgent, at least compared toward Pierre Laval. (Excuses, grounded or not, were found for Pétain, who was either a war hero or senile, and probably both. Laval...)
 
b4e7e7c00792dea8c60b3617e0a7bb88da0a2f12148b9f8f7972edc65067c1bd.jpg
 
ramius3443 said:
b4e7e7c00792dea8c60b3617e0a7bb88da0a2f12148b9f8f7972edc65067c1bd.jpg
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To be fair, Petain did not really do the worst of the Vichy atrocities- ie. forced conscription of forced workers to Germany, larger scale Holocaust collusion... that was Laval's doing.

And I doubt he would have gone back to France to face certain death at the hands of the Allies if he didn't feel at least some eventual guilt for his actions.

I'm not defending Petain entirely, part of Vichy's proto-fascist policies were part of his personal politics- and the dude certainly had white-flag tendencies.
 
He was an old man and acted like an old man, unable to keep pace with newfangled ideas or technology. Had the first world war seen Germany equally successful, the temporary acquiescence of half the nation to the Kaiser until such time as a humiliating conference where France hopes it can attend asses final damages, is the sensible result of such a defeat.

Blaming him for nazi-specific outcomes is unfair. The man's grave mistake was simply in regarding Hitler/Germany as a rational actor.
 
Graf Zeppelin said:
What could they have done in your opinion agaisnt Japan ? They barely managed to fend of Siam.
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"Hey, Vietnamese people! Help us to defend the Motherland (France) against the Japanese! We'll give you a better deal after the war is won, we promise!"
For example.
 
Kgw said:
"Hey, Vietnamese people! Help us to defend the Motherland (France) against the Japanese! We'll give you a better deal after the war is won, we promise!"
For example.
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Yeah well thats what the Japanese promised them.
 
yerm said:
He was an old man and acted like an old man, unable to keep pace with newfangled ideas or technology. Had the first world war seen Germany equally successful, the temporary acquiescence of half the nation to the Kaiser until such time as a humiliating conference where France hopes it can attend asses final damages, is the sensible result of such a defeat.

Blaming him for nazi-specific outcomes is unfair. The man's grave mistake was simply in regarding Hitler/Germany as a rational actor.
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He did far worse. His actions went far beyond simple acquiesence to german pressure and into deliberately aping them including aiding and abetting the Holocaust.

He is treated way too leniently.
 
Arilou said:
He did far worse. His actions went far beyond simple acquiesence to german pressure and into deliberately aping them including aiding and abetting the Holocaust.

He is treated way too leniently.
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He complied with the terms of their treaty which required his puppet government to turn over German nationals or refugees on demand. So did every other state conquered by the Nazis. In the end, France can claim among the highest survival percent for its Jews.

Not saying he was some Jew defending hero by any stretch, just, this demonizing of him is scapegoating. Compared to the other puppet stooges conquered by Germany, is he bad? When nations like mine (USA) refuse to let in these Jews that Hitler is starting to ask for, is it all his fault?

No. He was an old man abiding by logical but naive ideals of the past, not a monster.
 
yerm said:
He complied with the terms of their treaty which required his puppet government to turn over German nationals or refugees on demand.
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Jewish French citizens were handed over by Petian for extermination.

yerm said:
So did every other state conquered by the Nazis.
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Hungary, Denmark, and Italy followed state policies under German pressure which were much less antisemitic than Vichy France. Jews in the Italian occupation zone were actually safer from deportation.
 
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yerm said:
He complied with the terms of their treaty which required his puppet government to turn over German nationals or refugees on demand. So did every other state conquered by the Nazis. In the end, France can claim among the highest survival percent for its Jews.

Not saying he was some Jew defending hero by any stretch, just, this demonizing of him is scapegoating. Compared to the other puppet stooges conquered by Germany, is he bad? When nations like mine (USA) refuse to let in these Jews that Hitler is starting to ask for, is it all his fault?

No. He was an old man abiding by logical but naive ideals of the past, not a monster.
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No, he was a monster. Aiding and abetting other monsters. That he was far from the worst monster does not excuse him. The vichy government went well beyond what the germans forced them to do.

And Pétain had always been anti-semitic and anti-democratic. This was nothing new, the germans just gave him the power to enact his twisted views.
 
I just want to remember that also Vichy France "army" opposed more resistance to Allies' landing in North Africa (operation Torch) than to Germany when they fully occupied the rest of the country
 
Kgw said:
I just want to remember that also Vichy France "army" opposed more resistance to Allies' landing in North Africa (operation Torch) than to Germany when they fully occupied the rest of the country
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This was another symptom of Petain (and his colleagues) Anglophobia; there was a widespread fear that with France on the ropes, the British would take the opportunity to steal France's colonies (IIRC de Gaulle held similar worries). Mers-el-Kebir didn't help. Meanwhile against Attila I'm not sure Vichy could have done much anyway.
 
DoomBunny said:
This was another symptom of Petain (and his colleagues) Anglophobia; there was a widespread fear that with France on the ropes, the British would take the opportunity to steal France's colonies (IIRC de Gaulle held similar worries). Mers-el-Kebir didn't help. Meanwhile against Attila I'm not sure Vichy could have done much anyway.
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Petain also had already resigned by then anyways.
 
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