• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

20180730093248_1.jpg


Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

20180730093553_1.jpg


The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
20180730093708_1.jpg


Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

20180730094033_1.jpg


While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

20180730094125_1.jpg


A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

Hellenics5.jpg


Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

20180730094306_1.jpg


First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

20180730094406_1.jpg


Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
Small request: would you consider removing the facial hair from the old portraits of past Roman emperors?

The first one to actually keep a beard in real life was Hadrian. But almost every single emperor in the title history from Augustus and on is depicted with facial hair.

I know it's silly, but seeing Augustus with a beard kind of ruins the immersion.
 
Some questions:
1. What ethnicity is the Roman culture? Greek, Italian...?
2. Will there be an imperial naming system, such as the Chinese one.
3. Will there be latin names for provinces (As there are one for almost all in the real world, I would expect)
4. Will there be Latin titles? such as Imperator, Rex etc.
5. Will the Gods only have their Greek names if founded by a character of Greek culture? Are the Latin names their default?
6. Adding on that will the Latin gods have their English names or their Latin names? such as Jupiter Iūpiter.
7. Won't destroying the holy see destroy all of the Catholic Christendom? (Perhaps the Pope could be relocated to within the HRE?)
8. Will more characters be shaved, as beards were usually reserved for the clergy and philosophers?
9. And last, can Rome get a new flag? The current one is kind of ahistorical.

I think this might be the best expansion yet.
I'll try to answer what I can.
1. Italian (as in the faces), the clothes are specific just for the Romans.
2. No.
3. Some have cultural names if I recall correctly, yes.
4. To an extent, yes.
5. Latin names are default, they switch to the Greek versions if reformed by a Greek.
6. Jupiter, etc. The same they have in the game's current live version.
7. No, the Pope must always exist unfortunately. He will just become landless.
8. Yes, Roman characters are indeed less likely to grow beards.
9. I'm afraid not.

I know it's silly, but seeing Augustus with a beard kind of ruins the immersion.
Augustus has indeed been shaven.
 
"...The Aztecs, those barbarous fools, think that without the sacrificial blood, the sun won't rise.

Indeed, it will take a lot of blood to make the Unconquered Sun shine over the Empire again.

But by Jupiter, Rome is worth every drop.

You may have won once, Galilean, but the war just begins."


:D
 
Last edited:
So reviving Hellenism is a possibility, awesome.
Will this feature be available for other religions as well? For example if you start at a date where Germanic paganism is completely wiped out, will you be able to revive it when holding a holy site in a similar way as Hellenism?
 
The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
I know that Roman culture isn't normally in game, but many of us use the console or ruler designer. So could Roman culture also be able to restore Hellenism?
 
I'll try to answer what I can.
1. Italian (as in the faces), the clothes are specific just for the Romans.
2. No.
3. Some have cultural names if I recall correctly, yes.
4. To an extent, yes.
5. Latin names are default, they switch to the Greek versions if reformed by a Greek.
6. Jupiter, etc. The same they have in the game's current live version.
7. No, the Pope must always exist unfortunately. He will just become landless.
8. Yes, Roman characters are indeed less likely to grow beards.
9. I'm afraid not.


Augustus has indeed been shaven.

Regarding the first one, will they still have their handlebars?
 

Attachments

  • 3fe3d1f4c7a553281d65a082961c4f48.png
    3fe3d1f4c7a553281d65a082961c4f48.png
    67,9 KB · Views: 87
I know that Roman culture isn't normally in game, but many of us use the console or ruler designer. So could Roman culture also be able to restore Hellenism?
Yes, I have taken that possibility into consideration. You can pick the decision as an inexplicably Roman character existing before a Roman Renaissance.
Does it mean Scholarship
Scholarship_focus.png
Focus, or Scholar
Scholar.png
trait?
Either works.
 
If you choose Autonomous leadership, what are the sects that Hellenism has access to?
 
Perhaps I should rephrase. Greek myths focused more often on deities, while Roman myths were more often focused on mortal affairs. The Roman mythology and epic tradition posed many philosophical questions about the situation of mortals in the world, their destinies and their relations, the nature of things like tyranny, etc. In essence, Roman mythology is packed full of what Greeks might consider to be fables or parables, and vice versa. What is clear is that, by the end of the pagan period, the two had become strongly interwoven with one another.
Fair enough, I do not see it this way but it is indeniabe that after the greek integration into the Roman political structure, everyone to this day aggregate both pantheons and faith in a same ensemble.
In any case, this potential hellenic revival is a reconstruction of what people think was "roman-hellenistic religion", as actual neo-celtic believers think their beliefs are true to the actual ancient celtic faith in France, UK or Germany.

Would like to see celtic revival in the same way, and arabic faith too (both with drastic conditions, since it would historically be near impossible) ! Would be fun to see Arabic Peninsula fall apart because of religious uprising.

(ps : sorry if my english is erratic, that's not my primary language and I do not always know if what I write is clear, or neutral as it is intended to be)
 
he Bacchants (a Satanist society),
Shouldn't It be named Thiasos instead? As far as far as I know the Bacchantes were another name for the maenaids (female followers) of Dionysus.
 
I was already looking forward to Holy Fury. This made me pre-order. This expansion was already looking promising. Now I feel like it can't come enough and I am already postponing possible campaigns because I'd much rather do them once it is released. It can't come soon enough!
 
Like, at best if youre imagining realism, it would be inaccurate, because its people in the middle ages with only the knowledge available to scholars then, and not even scholars, nobles who are hobby scholars. It seems doubtful christian monks would offer their historical records to someone seeking to overthrow christianity.
So minor differences between roman and greek or specific laws or customs or fashions like, its not time travelers from 20 AD, itd be an approach to ancient rome less accurate ren faires are approaches to the middle ages. I mean look at art from the middle ages set in ancient greece, it aint historically accurate to our eyes but it fit what ancient greece represented to them.
so no need to overthink or quibble, the new rome game forum could use that specific classical era knowledge but when discussing a 'revival' by a medevial prince, maintaining his own power structure and eventually reforming the religion with a large range of options from the new system, the big things matter, but it's like medieval popular history not 100% accurate and with the benefit of centuries more of studying them and modern academic history.
It's hellenic religion installed by a feudal power structure and probably with ares/mars represented in art as a knight with a lance and brilliant heraldry.
so no worries

And if its fantasy then rule of cool, Zeus is a trashbag but he shoots lightening, zap! so no worries.

edit: lots of posts happened between when i opened the page and when I posted. this is about historical accuracy talk.
 
I think there should be an achievement:
Burn in the Purple: A born in the Purple character loses the civil war after he tried to reform it to hellenism.