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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

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Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

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The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
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Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

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While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

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Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

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First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

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Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
Well my question was already answered; I'm looking forward to burning down the Holy See once my Pagan empire conquers Rome :)

And well, this is really the best, and quite possibly only acceptable, way to revive Hellenism in the CK2 timeline. It's still pretty unlikely/fantasy-like, but well, all the Pagan Reforms are, and imho a little optional fantasy/whimsy don't hurt nobody.

Now I finally have a reason to restore the Roman Empire.

Only question left @Silfae, will it be possible to mod temple dedication for the other Pagans? Like could I mod a custom Doctrine into the game that lets me dedicate temples as a Norse or Slavic Pagan?

Funny thing, there was a late byzantine philosopher who advocated going back to worshiping the Olympians so its not that far fached if a similar chap catches the ear of an insane emperor
 
Only question left @Silfae, will it be possible to mod temple dedication for the other Pagans? Like could I mod a custom Doctrine into the game that lets me dedicate temples as a Norse or Slavic Pagan?
You could, sure, you'd need to write text and modifiers for all the other gods of all the other religions. It's not a complicate task, but it is time-consuming.
 
What about Celtic Paganism which was probably still around at the Old Gods start? @Silfae
 
You could, sure, you'd need to write text and modifiers for all the other gods of all the other religions. It's not a complicate task, but it is time-consuming.

Thank you!

And yeah I assumed that it'd be a bit of a workload, but that's not a problem. Just wanted to make sure it's not hard coded or anything.
And well I'd probably only do it for the gods and faiths I'm personally interested in, so that reduces it a bit.

Thanks, again. for your response and for making this game so moddable and all-around awesome. :)
 
What about Celtic Paganism which was probably still around at the Old Gods start? @Silfae

Lets not get greedy, Celtic paganism was arguably more dead than Hellenic by 769 the Irish were thoroughly evangelized by Patrick, and Columba,did a damn good job in Pictland. now an insular christian heresy...
 
Thank you!

And yeah I assumed that it'd be a bit of a workload, but that's not a problem. Just wanted to make sure it's not hard coded or anything.

Thanks, again. for your response and for making this game so moddable and all-around awesome. :)
You're welcome.
Yes, it is a shame, if I had had more time I might have done it myself so that other pagans could have it as a selectable Doctrine. The problem was that, unlike Haruspicy and Astrology, adapting Dedicate Temple was not just about changing a trigger or two, it required an extended rework.
 
You're welcome.
Yes, it is a shame, if I had had more time I might have done it myself so that other pagans could have it as a selectable Doctrine. The problem was that, unlike Haruspicy and Astrology, adapting Dedicate Temple was not just about changing a trigger or two, it required an extended rework.

Are the modifiers that specific that you couldn't just localize god names to the different pantheons?
 
Have you thought about redoing the Patron God mechanic? In EUIV Hindu and Norse can do it from the religion screen, maybe it could also be applied to CK2 instead of using a decision and event modifiers?
 
To be clear on something, will flipping to Hellenic pre-reformation force me into gavelkind?

The answer to this will largely determine if I ever actually bother.

Also, how will the "Delve into Classics" method work if Secret Religions are turned off? Will you just convert as normal, or will the decision be disabled entirely?
 
Lets not get greedy, Celtic paganism was arguably more dead than Hellenic by 769 the Irish were thoroughly evangelized by Patrick, and Columba,did a damn good job in Pictland. now an insular christian heresy...

I agree that one of the major reasons for English intervention in Ireland, was due to autonomy of the church here towards Rome. However, Pagan traditions survived for a very very long time after Paddy. Irish monks recorded Irish mythological stories quite fervently into the late middle ages. Obviously the stories didn't die out which implies that the tradition survived for a very long time after the Irish had nominally converted.

Patrick's strength was that he simply 'Christianised' very holy well in the country. There is probably holy well named after him in every townland.
 
No, but we added a Bloodline for restoring the Roman Empire in general (provided that you are not already member of a famous Byzantine Bloodline).

As a person who is really excited for bloodlines this does kind of concern me.

As much as I more often like to play a Byzantine vassal instead of someone big who would get a cool bloodline. And as much as I understand balance has to be had. Having it be either or to me is just sort of a buzz kill.

Are there other bloodlines that can prevent me from having an even cooler bloodline?

What are the general conditions that one might not get a bloodline?
 
Looks fantastic! Super excited!

One question about Roman culture. How does the Culture conversion game rule affect the spread of Roman culture? I like to play with “combination”. Is it treated as a Greek-Latin melting pot for gameplay purposes or is it considered separate?
 
To be clear on something, will flipping to Hellenic pre-reformation force me into gavelkind?
No.
As a person who is really excited for bloodlines this does kind of concern me.

As much as I more often like to play a Byzantine vassal instead of someone big who would get a cool bloodline. And as much as I understand balance has to be had. Having it be either or to me is just sort of a buzz kill.

Are there other bloodlines that can prevent me from having an even cooler bloodline?

What are the general conditions that one might not get a bloodline?
It depends on the Bloodline. There will be time in the future to discuss this in detail; as far as this specific example goes, it is a question of redundancy. If you have the Makedon Bloodline and restore the Empire, people will remember that it was the blood of Makedon (which was already well-known and prestigious) that restored Rome, whereas, if you are an upstart, you will found a Bloodline yourself.
One question about Roman culture. How does the Culture conversion game rule affect the spread of Roman culture? I like to play with “combination”. Is it treated as a Greek-Latin melting pot for gameplay purposes or is it considered separate?
It has its own modifiers to try and give the idea of a natural spread over the more compatible cultures.
 
Original Zoroastrian faith? Whats not original about the Zoroastrianism we currently have?
Zoroastrian => Incest => Pharaoh and their spouse => Kemetic faith