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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

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Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

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The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
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Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

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While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

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Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

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First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

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Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
Any unique festivals in the decisions for Hellenism?
Do they have unique councillor models and names?
I'm sure I've seen that "Rome burns!" art before but I can't remember where, is it used for something else in the current game?
No unique festivals or models. The image is used on one of the Mongol pillaging events.

If you adopt Hellenic as Byzantium (or Greek/Italian lower ranked rulers) before reforming Rome (or without reforming Rome) do you still get the events of the Christian worlds' reaction?
No, if you do it progressively by Secret Cult, there are no special events. Naturally, Christian rulers will still treat you like an infidel, the Pope might call Crusades against you, etc.
 
What about the term "partriarchs"? With autocephaly, will be used the term patriarch every time with every religion? Also, I don't know if there is this feature, but we can do a religion with female head-priest? and in this case what about the use of the term patriarch? Sorry if this was answered in previous developer diaries.
 
What about the term "partriarchs"? With autocephaly, will be used the term patriarch every time with every religion? Also, I don't know if there is this feature, but we can do a religion with female head-priest? and in this case what about the use of the term patriarch? Sorry if this was answered in previous developer diaries.
The Game of Thrones mod has some female heads of religion, so it's definitely possible.
 
No he very much did not, he was a greek king on the throne of the same empire which had previously been called Persian, Neobabylonian and neoassyrian. The laws remained the structures remained. The system of government remained. Alexander did not create a new empire.
He was just yet another foreign invader to take up the throne of the first empire to rise from the ashes of the bronze age collapse.

There was an islamic scholar who made this exact claim, I can't recall his name, that all empires in the region are essentially the same one under new management.
Bla bla bla!

Glorious Alexandria ≠ Inferior Persian Empire
 
Kronos was mostly regarded as a destructive force overthrown and replaced by the (relatively) more benign Olympians.
Later the Romans loosely associated their native God of the Harvest, Saturn, with Kronos, which gave him an image makeover and gave rise to the legend of the Saturnian Golden Age, "when men and gods lived together and hardly realized their differences" and, possibly through confusion with Chronos, also gave him associations with time.
Which is why in my message I wrote "Kronos (not Saturn, but Kronos")
Really all mentions of a benign Kronos are from the Roman era and, in reality, speak about Saturn. But, like with the other gods, the ancient-Greek Kronos isn't identical with Roman Saturn...



It's implied since The Old Gods that reformation creates a central dogma and canon (a religious text is explicitly mentioned). So unless you take "Autonomous Leadership" it's over with the pluralism. which means heresies would make perfect sense for all the post-reformation Pagan religions, including Hellenism.
You're conflating mythology with cultus, which can be connected but are separate. And of course they’re not identical (Kronos/Saturn), but Kronos still saw worship, even in Greece (Look up the Kronia).

Edit: Misspelling.
 
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Are pagans like hellenes (or any, really) still need to have reformed their religion or do they have new laws or do they have to have built any of these new buildings introduced in this update?
 
Have thought of adding the chance to create more societies for other pagans like you have for Hellenics?
It's weird that a dead religion get one society more than all other pagan religions... two if you count easy acess to the hermetics
 
Your conflating mythology with cultus, which can be connected but are separate. And of course they’re not identical (Kronos/Saturn), but Kronos still saw worship, even in Greece (Look up the Kronia).

Cheers, you just thought me something new about my favorite mythology. :D
I had genuinely believed that the whole association of the Golden Age with Kronos was a Roman invention.

Form what I have managed to dig up it still sounds like there is little evidence of Kronos-wrship outside of the Kronia and if I'm not mistaken it is still a later (Hellenic) development, but well...revived Hellenism would probably very much resemble later Greek religion than early Greek religion.
 
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@Silfae Earlier you mentioned that selecting the Sea-faring doctrine would put Poseidon as the head of the pantheon. I'm wondering, would selecting the Enatic Clans doctrine put Hera/Juno or maybe Athena/Minerva at the head of the pantheon?
 
@Silfae Earlier you mentioned that selecting the Sea-faring doctrine would put Poseidon as the head of the pantheon. I'm wondering, would selecting the Enatic Clans doctrine put Hera/Juno or maybe Athena/Minerva at the head of the pantheon?
Athena had a lot more clout than Minerva ever had, maybe Athena if greek and Juno if Roman.
 
@Silfae Earlier you mentioned that selecting the Sea-faring doctrine would put Poseidon as the head of the pantheon. I'm wondering, would selecting the Enatic Clans doctrine put Hera/Juno or maybe Athena/Minerva at the head of the pantheon?

I'd also be interested if Enactic Clans for the Nordics puts Freyja at the head of the Pantheon? At least in the surviving tales in the Edda she seems to be the most prominent Goddess. But Freyja might not have existed in that same form for the Saxons...

Athena had a lot more clout than Minerva ever had, maybe Athena if greek and Juno if Roman.
True! Athena was one of those deities that was too complex for Rome and ended up being equated with two of their native deities: Minerva and Bellona.

Though while Juno would be a good choice, I could also see Diana being put at the head...she was a very important deity in the early part of the religion.
Or maybe Vesta? The Vestal Virgins had considerable prestige and power...
 
Great, and pretty well implemented so as to leave the possibility of restoring the old gods without imposing an alternative route to the player.

I really like new portraits too but there is a small point that disturbs me (not essential). The laurel crown seems to me quite different from what the last Roman emperors wore, which was more a diadem of pearls and precious stones. What we see on the coin figuring Julien the apostate for example is very different. Is it a generic crown, for all emperors of Roman culture, or a crown intended only for the Roman empire? And if not, would it be possible to implement a diadem for Roman characters in addition to the laurel crown (that i also like and don't want to just be removed) or is the development too advanced? I know that is a cosmetic detail but in CK2 crowns are my obsession.
 
Now looking at all the suggestions posted here for Hellenism, notably College of Pontiffs, Olympic Games, Vestal Virgins, legendary artifacts....combined with actual fun stuff they're getting, plus all the possibilities from reformation....s**t, that would be by far the best religion in the game.
I can see Ancient Religions Reborn Reborn already.... :D
 
I'd also be interested if Enactic Clans for the Nordics puts Freyja at the head of the Pantheon? At least in the surviving tales in the Edda she seems to be the most prominent Goddess. But Freyja might not have existed in that same form for the Saxons...
Very likely not, it seem that the cult of the vanir was the original cult in scandinavia and the cult of the aesir was imported from the continent later and spready through denmark and the baltic coast. In part if may have been the displacement of pagans from saxony which led to the aesir becoming the prominent cult in denmark and then it spreading from there.
You'll notice the Yngling line (foudned at Uppsala) did not claim descent from Odin but from Freyr, who as part of the divine couple with Freya was the main god of the Vanir cult, though I seem to recall Njord being the king of the Vanir. Anyway it suggests that at some point Uppland was not the heart of the worship of Odin but the heart of the worship of Freyr.

But for the purposes of the game I'd say having Freya become the main godess even for saxons makes sense.
 
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As I said in one of the posts before, if the game rule is on, both player and AI have access to it, but the AI is extremely unlikely to be competent enough to pull it off (at least as far as our internal testing has shown).

The event chain is triggered by reforming the Roman Empire, not simply having the title.
In any case, if you do not wish to restore Hellenism as a Roman Emperor, you still have the Delve into Classics decision, which has much more accessible requirements.

Okay thank you, so that means I either need to orchestrate it myself or I need to some how put the AI in a prolonged state to do so.
Probably a step up from playing as a Frankish Minor and assassinating one of the Carolingian bothers so they form the HRE/Francia and you are left in a safe position while they fix things for you, then taking it over and taking over the Eastern Roman Empire...

I should probably start brainstorming now.
 
Very likely not, it seem that the cult of the vanir was the original cult in scandinavia and the cult of the aesir was imported from the continent later and spready through denmark and the baltic coast. In part if may have been the displacement of pagans from saxony which led to the aesir becoming the prominent cult in denmark and then it spreading from there.
You'll notice the Yngling line (foudned at Uppsala) did not claim descent from Odin but from Freyr, who as part of the divine couple with Freya was the main god of the Vanir cult, though I seem to recall Njord being the king of the Vanir. Anyway it suggests that at some point Uppland was not the heart of the worship of Odin but the heart of the worship of Freyr.

But for the purposes of the game I'd say having Freya become the main godess even for saxons makes sense.

Well a goddess named Frija did exist in Pagan Germany (mentioned as a goddess skilled in magic and the sister of an even more enigmatic goddes, Volla in the Merseburg Incantations), but we know so little about her that it's impossible to say whether she was closer to Frigg or Freyja as they are depicted in the Edda. Though the whole affair with Freyja and Frigg is a whole different topic...
And for what is worth Frey/Yngvi/Yngwaz seems to have been known among the Anglo-Saxons.

I think in recent years. it has been frequently questioned whether the Vanir constitute an older, Scandinavian pantheon, or whether the portioning of several gods into the Vanir was a lter development...
According to Dutch author and neopagan Freyja Asswyn the oldest Germanic names for gods, possibly from before the Migration Period are: Wodanaz (Odin) Thunraz (Thor) Teiwaz (Tyr) Ingwaz (Yngvi/Frey) and Frjjo (Frigg and possibly Freya) so it's likely that some version of them was known among most/all pagan German tribes.
 
I really like new portraits too but there is a small point that disturbs me (not essential). The laurel crown seems to me quite different from what the last Roman emperors wore, which was more a diadem of pearls and precious stones. What we see on the coin figuring Julien the apostate for example is very different.
Regarding things like this, and "that's classic hollywood armour and not what they really used"...

I can dig it ;) It is, after all, a long-dead faith being "revived" by lunatics or someone with a heavy romantic streak, so it's already a "modern" reinterpreted revival based on popular knowledge or whatever they're digging up. Imagine if your idea of Rome was by way of Shakespeare.

What'd be really cool is if they were actually weaker militarily, specifically because of tactics that went obsolete centuries ago and inferior arms and armour brought back for aesthetic.