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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

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Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

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The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
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Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

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While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

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Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

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First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

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Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
The funny thing last time I looked Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune or Pluto wasn't Greek. And it's strange enough to see Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto be called as Kronids.
Roman Pantheon isn't Olympian Twelve with different names and haircuts.

Okay then, to be more technicially correct so it would make sense outside of this Dev Diary:
Why are the two Pantheon's being conflated together and on top of it being referred to as Hellenism, if restoring the original Roman religion should be the Roman Pantheon which was never referred to as Hellenism?
Like I said it makes sense from a game mechanic point of view to conflate them together, I'm just curious as to why it's all being lumped under Hellenism.
As an aside even referring to the Greek Pantheon as Hellenism isn't correct, as that's a term used to describe Hellenistic culture rather than a just a belief system.
 
Okay then, to be more technicially correct so it would make sense outside of this Dev Diary:
Why are the two Pantheon's being conflated together and on top of it being referred to as Hellenism, if restoring the original Roman religion should be the Roman Pantheon which was never referred to as Hellenism?
Like I said it makes sense from a game mechanic point of view to conflate them together, I'm just curious as to why it's all being lumped under Hellenism.
As an aside even referring to the Greek Pantheon as Hellenism isn't correct, as that's a term used to describe Hellenistic culture rather than a just a belief system.

Like for "African" I would consider "Hellenic" to be a catch-all term rather than specifically referring to one of the many Greek and Roman versions, especially considering that the religion is being revived by a former-Christian and reformed to the player's liking.
 
I personally love this. Don't really get the complaints - it's gonna make a lot of people really happy, and you can always turn it off if it bothers you. It really isn't that implausible either - it's already been established that the reformer might be seen by his contemporaries as a "lunatic", and given the fact that there were plenty of historical eccentrics, I don't think it's completely out there to suspect the whole restoring-Rome thing might give a particularly free thinking Emperor some historical inspiration; many did after all blame Rome's fall on an abandonment of the Gods in the first place.

I know this thread has been on a while but I just have a few of my own questions:
1) I know it's already been asked several times, but will there be any equivalent scenarios to the "study the classics" option for people's of different cultures? ie: an Anglo-Saxon Englishman apostatising to Germanic paganism? I'm curious to know whether this is the start of a plan to add more religions too - although I would certainly be sympathetic if you didn't add other "ancient" faiths - after all, religions such as Egyptian paganism had already been eroded and assimilated into the Greco-Roman pantheon for centuries before Rome's collapse.
2) Will there be an option to choose a more universal name upon reformation? ie: "Romuva" isn't too bad, but it somewhat bothers me that some of the pagan religions like "Germanic" and "Slavic" are intrinsically linked to their ethnic-base, which wouldn't make too much sense if you aim to create a universalist-orientated faith upon reformation.
3) Will we see any more flavour for heresies? I was really pleased to see that some like Manichaeism have finally gained a little flavour from their parent religions, but some like the Yazidis are still really, really plain and boring. It would be nice for some of these to get a bit of TLC, though I appreciate it's probably not a priority.

But mainly, a big thank you!! I'm really hyped for this DLC, and I love how you guys really listen to the community :)
 
But the Spatha and Plumbata were not (which is what late legionaries would have carried, not pila and gladii). The Byzantines still used the Spatha. And Plumbata were also still used in the medieval period.

They did, but not for long in the medieval ages.

If someone reform the roman empire, maybe even take the old religion of back the. They for sure wouldn’t turn back the wheelof technology and build old weapons for the military. They would most likely use the troop types they already have and rename them to the old types. Maybe some symbolism. Thats it. They wouldn’t put their troops in oldschool armor with oldschool weapons. Only for ceremonial stuff but not for warfare.

It’s like todays germamy proclaiming Kaiserreich with a Hohenzollen guy as Emperor and arming the troops with repeating rifles and pickelhaube.
 

Guys, I'm not asking what it means game play wise I get that. I mean why call it Hellenic when say it could be numenism or something and again I understand Hellenism is easier for people to identify with which is why it might have been the choice but I'm still curious, just curious.

Again I'm not asking what their intent was or how it works in the game, I got that the first time.
 
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They did, but not for long in the medieval ages.

If someone reform the roman empire, maybe even take the old religion of back the. They for sure wouldn’t turn back the wheelof technology and build old weapons for the military. They would most likely use the troop types they already have and rename them to the old types. Maybe some symbolism. Thats it. They wouldn’t put their troops in oldschool armor with oldschool weapons. Only for ceremonial stuff but not for warfare.

It’s like todays germamy proclaiming Kaiserreich with a Hohenzollen guy as Emperor and arming the troops with repeating rifles and pickelhaube.
Fun fact, the Byzantine army used a lot of fossilized Latin words and phrases.
 
I have a question concerning the likelihood of the AI characters at the throne of the Roman Empire ever reintroducing the Hellenistic pagan religion. Eventually, is one of the various heads of the Roman Empire destined to attempt to restore it? Could this happen in the span of its existence since a few centuries of its re-founding, assuming the Roman Empire has had enough time and stability to exist for so long? Or, is a Christian Roman Empire for its entire span of existence still much more likely to be witnessed, according to the acts of the AI Emperors?
 
I have a question concerning the likelihood of the AI characters at the throne of the Roman Empire ever reintroducing the Hellenistic pagan religion. Eventually, is one of the various heads of the Roman Empire destined to attempt to restore it? Could this happen in the span of its existence since a few centuries of its re-founding, assuming the Roman Empire has had enough time and stability to exist for so long? Or, is a Christian Roman Empire for its entire span of existence still much more likely to be witnessed, according to the acts of the AI Emperors?
So far it sounds like these events only happen if you become Hellenic right after forming it and you don't get the events if you do something like a found a secret order and then take over, but even if that's not the case I'm willing to bet that would give the AI more chances to, so that's technically yes but I think that it would also take the AI having some combination of the right traits like cynical, sinful, and/or hedonistic for it to have any real chance of happening out of the blue.
These are just my guesses though.
 
Guys, I'm not asking what it means game play wise I get that. I mean why call it Hellenic when say it could be numenism or something and again I understand Hellenism is easier for people to identify with which is why it might have been the choice but I'm still curious, just curious.

Again I'm not asking what their intent was or how it works in the game, I got that the first time.

Probably as a translation of the modern neopagan movement Hellenismos which, if translated to English, comes out as "Hellenism" because us non-conjugating bastards like to take other peoples' words and drop the endings off. It, essentially, translates as "the quality of being Hellenic" or "the quality of being a Hellene", which would actually apply fairly well since the medieval use of "Hellene" tended to be equivalent to "Pagan", although the word itself originates from "bright" and thus could also refer to "enlightenment" in its own sense.
 
They did, but not for long in the medieval ages.

If someone reform the roman empire, maybe even take the old religion of back the. They for sure wouldn’t turn back the wheelof technology and build old weapons for the military. They would most likely use the troop types they already have and rename them to the old types. Maybe some symbolism. Thats it. They wouldn’t put their troops in oldschool armor with oldschool weapons. Only for ceremonial stuff but not for warfare.

It’s like todays germamy proclaiming Kaiserreich with a Hohenzollen guy as Emperor and arming the troops with repeating rifles and pickelhaube.
Actually the Spatha did last a long time in the Byzantine empire, even the title . Plumbata (lead weighted darts ) were also in use throughout the medieval period. So yes, they lasted a while.

But honestly, we can go back to the original claim that a short sword (gladius) and a pilum (javelin) were not in use during the middle ages. The Almogavars of the 13th and 14th centuries were based on legionaries, with a battle kit that amounts to EARLY Imperial Roman period legions (not even the late period, with darts and longer swords). The Anglo-Saxons used the Angon, which was basically a more modern pilum with barbed ends. Its purpose was the same as the pilum, not to kill (though it could) but to render a shield or exposed body part useless. This would simultaneously disrupt the enemy's formation. Even the Welsh loved raiding Normans with javelins similar to their neighbors.
 
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So far it sounds like these events only happen if you become Hellenic right after forming it and you don't get the events if you do something like a found a secret order and then take over, but even if that's not the case I'm willing to bet that would give the AI more chances to, so that's technically yes but I think that it would also take the AI having some combination of the right traits like cynical, sinful, and/or hedonistic for it to have any real chance of happening out of the blue.
These are just my guesses though.

Thank you. I have never seen the AI form the Roman Empire (formable version) before, although I understand the Byzantine Empire to really be the Roman Empire, to begin with. If they form this new united Roman Empire (Western and Eastern), then I would rather that, under most circumstances, it is just Byzantine business as usual, staying Christians, whichever branch of that it may be for the leadership. I could deal with a certain chance for the reintroduction of paganism in the Empire, and it would be fun to see it occur in the same way I see the Aztecs happen, so unexpectedly. That would give me a chance to fight a Julian the Apostate type of ruler, and try to restore the Empire to Christendom. I support the new possibilities enabled by Holy Fury, and I also like that the Hellenic paganism is a feature that could be enabled or disabled for a game. I knew about Hellenism being a religion that one could give a character through the console, but that is not Ironman compatible, so currently, it is not really possible under the stricter rules of play to see it happen, except with Holy Fury, and now there are in-depth new events associated with its reoccurrence into the world.

Actually the Spatha did last a long time in the Byzantine empire. Plumbata (lead weighted darts) were also use throughout the medieval period. So yes they lasted a while.

I could see a revived Roman Empire basing its appearance off of the Comitatenses and Limitanei model of army, used between the 3rd century AD, through around the 6th or 7th century, until it became replaced by a newer system. During the Western Roman Empire, and during the years of the last united Roman Empire, prior to Justinian's conquests, the armies were of the Comitatenses and Limitanei model, probably introduced by Diocletian. Since Constantine abolished the Praetorian Guard, I think it may be inappropriate to bring them back. Would not a future Emperor understand the wisdom of Constantine's abolishment of such an establishment, so prone to corruption and threats to the Emperor's life? Maybe continuing to rely on mostly foreign bodyguards would be the way to go, like the Varangian Guards.
 
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Nah, they should release this ASAP and then expand Roman Empire Hellenic faith in a new expansion. They could call it Legacy of Rome! ...oh, wait...

Or, the Legacy of Alexander, focusing on the Eastern Mediterranean and regions going east and south, where Megas Alexandros had conquered, maybe even including the possibility to base one's Empire off of Alexander's, or something generally Hellenic/Greek, instead of that of the Italic Romans. I don't know if that holds much water anymore, as Rome was still considered prestigious, and I don't know what medieval nobles, kings, clergy, and scholars generally thought of Alexander, other than a great, yet distantly ancient pagan conqueror, or those competing factions of the Hellenistic Age. Perhaps such an expansion pack could especially focus on Middle Eastern realms that already exist, and further improve accuracy in those regions, even permitting the occasion for new portraits to show up for the Bedouin Arabians, Levantines, Egyptians, Coptics (if they don't get the Greek portraits) and the North African Berbers. I would welcome a little more portrait diversity in India, as well.