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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

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Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

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The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
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Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

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While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

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Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

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First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

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Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
Or, the Legacy of Alexander, focusing on the Eastern Mediterranean and regions going east and south, where Megas Alexandros had conquered, maybe even including the possibility to base one's Empire off of Alexander's, or something generally Hellenic/Greek, instead of that of the Italic Romans. I don't know if that holds much water anymore, as Rome was still considered prestigious, and I don't know what medieval nobles, kings, clergy, and scholars generally thought of Alexander, other than a great, yet distantly ancient pagan conqueror, or those competing factions of the Hellenistic Age. Perhaps such an expansion pack could especially focus on Middle Eastern realms that already exist, and further improve accuracy in those regions, even permitting the occasion for new portraits to show up for the Bedouin Arabians, Levantines, Egyptians, Coptics (if they don't get the Greek portraits) and the North African Berbers. I would welcome a little more portrait diversity in India, as well.

A L E X A N D E R

But while they do Legacy of Alexander completely overhaul hellenism for the second time and add legions and gladiators and so on
But i'd love to see a completely reworked middle east
 
I could see a revived Roman Empire basing its appearance off of the Comitatenses and Limitanei model of army, used between the 3rd century AD, through around the 6th or 7th century, until it became replaced by a newer system. During the Western Roman Empire, and during the years of the last united Roman Empire, prior to Justinian's conquests, the armies were of the Comitatenses and Limitanei model, probably introduced by Diocletian. Since Constantine abolished the Praetorian Guard, I think it may be inappropriate to bring them back. Would not a future Emperor understand the wisdom of Constantine's abolishment of such an establishment, so prone to corruption and threats to the Emperor's life? Maybe continuing to rely on mostly foreign bodyguards would be the way to go, like the Varangian Guards.
Great response. But I'm not putting politics into a retinue, as there's no precedent for it. These are standing armies after all, not hired mercs (Varangians).

The question I present is, if you're going for a renewed Greco-Roman Renaissance, why not have an inherit advantage/disadvantage combat balance, considering the realm size and prestige? We know that to create the Roman Empire, or even to succeed as a reformed Hellenistic, will require a ton of resources. I'm down with a retinue that isn't universally over powered. A retinue that is heavy infantry exclusive, but is susceptible to the historic heavy cavalry and skirmish cavalry disadvantage that we saw with the Parthian, Sasanian wars.
 
Probably as a translation of the modern neopagan movement Hellenismos which, if translated to English, comes out as "Hellenism" because us non-conjugating bastards like to take other peoples' words and drop the endings off. It, essentially, translates as "the quality of being Hellenic" or "the quality of being a Hellene", which would actually apply fairly well since the medieval use of "Hellene" tended to be equivalent to "Pagan", although the word itself originates from "bright" and thus could also refer to "enlightenment" in its own sense.

Ahhhh, see that's the answer I wanted; I didn't know about the modern movement or that Hellene was often used to designate Pagans, that second one in particular makes for a very good reason in my mind to call them Hellenic, thank you.
 
Great response. But I'm not putting politics into a retinue, as there's no precedent for it. These are standing armies after all, not hired mercs (Varangians).

The question I present is, if you're going for a renewed Greco-Roman Renaissance, why not have an inherit advantage/disadvantage combat balance, considering the realm size and prestige? We know that to create the Roman Empire, or even to succeed as a reformed Hellenistic, will require a ton of resources. I'm down with a retinue that isn't universally over powered. A retinue that is heavy infantry exclusive, but is susceptible to the historic heavy cavalry and skirmish cavalry disadvantage that we saw with the Parthian, Sasanian wars.
Well in the specific case of re-establishing the praetorian guard as a retinue, I would think anyone with an interest in the classics would also have an interest in and access to books about roman history, and all that's required then is be able to notice certain patterns of behavior when reading about the praetorians and the way they tended to ehh..."urge" assorted roman emperors to give up power.
 
word itself originates from "bright" and thus could also refer to "enlightenment" in its own sense.

Ahhhh, see that's the answer I that second one in particular makes for a very good reason in my mind to call them Hellenic, thank you.

Ἕλληνες (Hellenes) does not originate from the word for "bright". It originates from a tribal name of unknown meaning.

Helen of Troy's name (Ἑλένη = Helene) is related to the various words pertaining to light/bright or sources of light.
 
Wow! Silfae I didn't know you started to work for the paradox team! That is epic! You deserve it with your awesome portrait mods and work for the community. I don't usually post on forums much but I thought I should say it anyways.
 
Thank you. I have never seen the AI form the Roman Empire (formable version) before, although I understand the Byzantine Empire to really be the Roman Empire, to begin with. If they form this new united Roman Empire (Western and Eastern), then I would rather that, under most circumstances, it is just Byzantine business as usual, staying Christians, whichever branch of that it may be for the leadership. I could deal with a certain chance for the reintroduction of paganism in the Empire, and it would be fun to see it occur in the same way I see the Aztecs happen, so unexpectedly. That would give me a chance to fight a Julian the Apostate type of ruler, and try to restore the Empire to Christendom. I support the new possibilities enabled by Holy Fury, and I also like that the Hellenic paganism is a feature that could be enabled or disabled for a game. I knew about Hellenism being a religion that one could give a character through the console, but that is not Ironman compatible, so currently, it is not really possible under the stricter rules of play to see it happen, except with Holy Fury, and now there are in-depth new events associated with its reoccurrence into the world.
As already said, the chance is very low, but the AI can do it in theory.

Wow! Silfae I didn't know you started to work for the paradox team! That is epic! You deserve it with your awesome portrait mods and work for the community. I don't usually post on forums much but I thought I should say it anyways.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
 
I've been bashing the idea for playable Hellenism before but if this is the turn the game will take, then sure. Its not a game breaker so I can roll with it.

Would be pretty cool if the Romans would indeed resurrect in my game so that I can kill them in CK2 as well as In I:R. True evil never dies but the smell of Roman blood is sweet indeed.
 
@Silfae if you are not allowed to answer this I understand, but what caused the Dev team to change their minds on Hellenic seeing how up until now it was argued a waste of resources by previous devs?
 
Ἕλληνες (Hellenes) does not originate from the word for "bright". It originates from a tribal name of unknown meaning.

Helen of Troy's name (Ἑλένη = Helene) is related to the various words pertaining to light/bright or sources of light.
Noted, though I was referring to the part about it being a term for Pagans more than the bright part, but good to know anyways.
 
As already said, the chance is very low, but the AI can do it in theory.

Thank you for the clarification, Silfae!

Aight, now just add the Celtic Paganism and well be done

I could see new overhauls for the Celts in a new expansion pack getting popular enough to justify it, or generally the people of the different corners of the world, northwest, northeast, southeast, and southwest, but it looks like Holy Fury has got southwest covered, yet there could still be room for improvement. I realize it is unlikely, but I would like to see the coast expanded for West Africa, instead of just stopping around southern Morocco or Mauritania. That way, the Norse Greenland colonies could even be added, if the map goes a bit further enough so as to include both the Western and the Eastern Settlements, and maybe the Skraelings could be featured, with their own culture and portraits, who are called the Inuit/Eskimos today, but the Norse called the North American Natives Skraelings as well. As for the far east, I could see some improvements getting done for the areas of Mongolia, and also the lands north of Lake Baikal, or the whole of Siberia getting new tribal characters to play as, generally. I find Siberia a fascinating region of the world, yet, with so much unknown about it due to the lack of written records. The areas in and around India could also be improved, perhaps even adding Burma into the game, to complete the Tibeto-Burman culture group, with playable Burman/Burmese characters.
 
im getting the feeling that holy fury might be the last actual dlc, and they wanna cram everything we've ever asked for into it. about the only thing left unnanouced at this point, is naval combat and trade fleets
 
Thank you for the clarification, Silfae!



I could see new overhauls for the Celts in a new expansion pack getting popular enough to justify it, or generally the people of the different corners of the world, northwest, northeast, southeast, and southwest, but it looks like Holy Fury has got southwest covered, yet there could still be room for improvement. I realize it is unlikely, but I would like to see the coast expanded for West Africa, instead of just stopping around southern Morocco or Mauritania. That way, the Norse Greenland colonies could even be added, if the map goes a bit further enough so as to include both the Western and the Eastern Settlements, and maybe the Skraelings could be featured, with their own culture and portraits, who are called the Inuit/Eskimos today, but the Norse called the North American Natives Skraelings as well. As for the far east, I could see some improvements getting done for the areas of Mongolia, and also the lands north of Lake Baikal, or the whole of Siberia getting new tribal characters to play as, generally. I find Siberia a fascinating region of the world, yet, with so much unknown about it due to the lack of written records. The areas in and around India could also be improved, perhaps even adding Burma into the game, to complete the Tibeto-Burman culture group, with playable Burman/Burmese characters.

Problem with Greenland is the Inuit didn't get to eastern north america until around 11-1200 and Greenland by 1300. The Skraelings the Vikings encountered were a now entirely extinct pre-Inuit culture we know very little about.
 
im getting the feeling that holy fury might be the last actual dlc, and they wanna cram everything we've ever asked for into it. about the only thing left unannounced at this point, is naval combat and trade fleets

That and, a certain little ring around the emperor of Rome's portrait their being awfully quiet about...
 
Problem with Greenland is the Inuit didn't get to eastern north america until around 11-1200 and Greenland by 1300. The Skraelings the Vikings encountered were a now entirely extinct pre-Inuit culture we know very little about.

Oh, I see that you are writing about the Dorset culture, that arrived before the Thule/Inuit people. In that case, the pre-Inuit and pre-Norse Greenland inhabitants could fall under a broader cultural group in common with the Inuit, something called New World Arctic, perhaps? Or... Arctic Marine Mammal Hunters, like on those Wikipedia maps?

im getting the feeling that holy fury might be the last actual dlc, and they wanna cram everything we've ever asked for into it. about the only thing left unnanouced at this point, is naval combat and trade fleets

I doubt that Holy Fury is the very last. I suspect that one more, at least, will come around next year, in order to add in new things. The very last may be an expansion devoted to making the Middle East and India more interesting, as well as maybe some other areas.

I did not quite understand: will Hellenic be able to restore Roman Empire or it is still only can be done by Christian?

Yes! Both Hellenic religion and Christian religion characters could reform it.
 
Or, the Legacy of Alexander, focusing on the Eastern Mediterranean and regions going east and south, where Megas Alexandros had conquered, maybe even including the possibility to base one's Empire off of Alexander's, or something generally Hellenic/Greek, instead of that of the Italic Romans. I don't know if that holds much water anymore, as Rome was still considered prestigious, and I don't know what medieval nobles, kings, clergy, and scholars generally thought of Alexander, other than a great, yet distantly ancient pagan conqueror, or those competing factions of the Hellenistic Age. Perhaps such an expansion pack could especially focus on Middle Eastern realms that already exist, and further improve accuracy in those regions, even permitting the occasion for new portraits to show up for the Bedouin Arabians, Levantines, Egyptians, Coptics (if they don't get the Greek portraits) and the North African Berbers. I would welcome a little more portrait diversity in India, as well.
Or you could play imperator. As for who cared about alexander... the arabs did, a lot. They called him Dhul-Qarnayn, the great conqueror and the idea as I understood it is that Alexander, Cyrus and some others were all Dhul-Qarnayn who somehow showed up several times in history.

Problem with Greenland is the Inuit didn't get to eastern north america until around 11-1200 and Greenland by 1300. The Skraelings the Vikings encountered were a now entirely extinct pre-Inuit culture we know very little about.
That's interesting, maybe the vikings did bring disease to the new world after all, but to such an isolated place that it simply wiped the locals out instead of becoming epidemic.
 
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