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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

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Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

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The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
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Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

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While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

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Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

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First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

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Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
I think the "reformation" is just so you can choose the direction you want to take the religion in (doctrines and leadership). Hellenic used to be pre-reformed, and it's not like Norse paganism where you have to unite a large group of different folk beliefs together.

It is a Greek religion, and the ruler of all Greece must be able to reform it, with difficulty being neither here nor there; right now you are able to reform it as a Greek controlling Greek territories, or as a Roman controlling historical Roman territories (which include Greece).

My first Holy Fury game is going to be as a Greek seeking to make a Hellenic Greece without Alexandria, Rome or Gibraltar, so I'm going to be tremendously annoyed if the holy site locations are changed.

CK2 is not a balanced game where all paths need to have the same difficulty. Some religions are harder to reform than others, just as some rulers are harder to play than others, and that's fine.
I see why you feel that way. But I feel like the main historical drivers for the hellens are going to be Rome and the alexandrian empire. So I assume people will be looking to take egypt as part of that.

It's not just that three of the holy sites are in Greece but that they're also really close together.

If you become the Byzantine Empire or even just a reasonable form of the the Kingdom of greece you can basically reform immediately which makes it feel not just a bit easier than most reformations but laughably easy.

If one of them was just slightly farther away like Rhodes, or Sicily, or somewhere else important to the hellens I can't think of. It would at least mean you have to conquer/take over more than one Kingdom or so.
 
As Silfae mentioned, they have unique names (if you are a Greek reformer, you get "Zeus" and "Hera", but if an Italian reformer, "Jupiter", "Juno"), and this matters for flavour which is the main feature of Holy Fury. I imagine most people don't play CK2 to minmax and win, but to tell a story, and the creation of a pagan Greek realm is one such story.

At present, the Hellenic religion offers a Roman-Italian path, and a Greek path, which means at least two separate game opportunities (see how Zoroastrianism only really offers one).

There's no need to scatter the holy sites artificially, forcing players who want to go either route to take distant territories that make no sense just for the sake of reforming. It's bad enough with Germanic paganism, which if you want to reform the Germanic faith as Anglo-Saxon England, forces you to blob into Scandinavia.

To be honest, the holy sites mechanic that served its purpose when the Old Gods was released now shows its age. It'd be better if there were more holy sites (as many as each religion needed) weighted differently, and that sufficient "reformation points" were needed in order to reform (including religion-specific artifacts and total demesne size). Something like that would allow greater flexibility.
Really it should be easier to reform a smaller religon rather than a larger one.
 
"Hi, I am the Byzantine Emperor! I suddenly declare myself Hellenic and now have the holy sites I need!"

We don't need an even easier version of the Tengri reformation. Hence, I like the idea of moving the holy site from Abydos to Sicily. It's a nod to Pythagoras, it makes Italy equally important to Greece, and it means that you don't have all the holy sites you need packed into a single kingdom.
 
I would like to remember that, since the religion starts dead, it has 0 Moral Authority. Owning just all of Greece with full control of the three holy sites (which you'd likely need to wrestle control of from Orthodox priests under Orthodox vassals) will get you to 30, which leaves you with still 20 more to earn before being able to reform (barring any negative gain due to Crusades/Holy Wars).
 
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I see why you feel that way. But I feel like the main historical drivers for the hellens are going to be Rome and the alexandrian empire. So I assume people will be looking to take egypt as part of that.

It's not just that three of the holy sites are in Greece but that they're also really close together.

If you become the Byzantine Empire or even just a reasonable form of the the Kingdom of greece you can basically reform immediately which makes it feel not just a bit easier than most reformations but laughably easy.

If one of them was just slightly farther away like Rhodes, or Sicily, or somewhere else important to the hellens I can't think of. It would at least mean you have to conquer/take over more than one Kingdom or so.

The hard part of playing the Hellenic religion is not reforming it, but introducing it to begin with.

It is not like any other unreformed faith because it doesn't exist at the start of the game, and so there's no need to add difficulty measures which would take it from being hard to insanely hard. And for the sake of difficulty at the expense of historicity?

I think any argument to change the holy sites should not be based on making reformation more difficult, but on providing flexibility (i.e. allowing Italians to reform the faith without taking Greece) or historicity.

The current setup allows Hellenic paganism to reform without excessive blobbing, and I think that's worth preserving.
 
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I concede that the difficulty will come from wrestling vassals into compliance and getting Greece's holy sites under Hellenic rule. Once Greece is nominally under Hellenic control, conquering Rome and then defeating the inevitable crusade (which is enough for 51% MA) will be child's play.
 
If you want to get up to 50% moral authority with Helenism, you probably need four holy sites and win a ton of conquest wars. Successfully defending a holy war or two would help as well. It doesn't sound like they get the easiest way to boost authority, which is raiding infidel temples.
 
The hard part of playing the Hellenic religion is not reforming it, but introducing it to begin with.

It is not like any other unreformed faith because it doesn't exist at the start of the game, and so there's no need to add difficulty measures which would take it from being hard to insanely hard. And for the sake of difficulty at the expense of historicity?

I think any argument to change the holy sites should not be based on making reformation more difficult, but on providing flexibility (i.e. allowing Italians to reform the faith without taking Greece) or historicity.

The current setup allows Hellenic paganism to reform without excessive blobbing, and I think that's worth preserving.

Conceded - but moving the Abydos site to Sicily is still a good idea on those grounds. There's no excessive blobbing involved and it gives Italians a chance to delve into the classics without holding Rome.
 
I would like to remember that, since the religion starts dead, it has 0 Moral Authority. Owning just all of Greece with full control of the three holy sites (which you'd likely need to wrestle control of from Orthodox priests under Orthodox vassals) will get you to 30, which leaves you with still 20 more to earn before being able to reform (barring any negative gain due to Crusades/Holy Wars).

At least it is confirmed that:
With new Pagan reformation system, Three holy sites and fifty Moral Authority are still required.
 
Conceded - but moving the Abydos site to Sicily is still a good idea on those grounds. There's no excessive blobbing involved and it gives Italians a chance to delve into the classics without holding Rome.
I had totally missed that they couldn't. Yes I very much second this. Syracuse instead of one of the greek ones, so you don't have to topple the papacy first before being able to go pagan.
 
I would like to remember that, since the religion starts dead, it has 0 Moral Authority. Owning just all of Greece with full control of the three holy sites (which you'd likely need to wrestle control of from Orthodox priests under Orthodox vassals) will get you to 30, which leaves you with still 20 more to earn before being able to reform (barring any negative gain due to Crusades/Holy Wars).
Maybe I'm just too experienced at this game but gaining 20 Moral authority, Especially with a bunch of people around you hating you, sounds like a pretty easy task.

If you convert as the byzantine empire it would be a joke, Just save up enough of your money to build a few temples, win a few holy wars.

What kind of conversion ability does unreformed Hellenic have? Can you declare holy wars?
 
Are you able to demand conversion as unreformed? Might make sense for Hellenism to have that ability, even without reformation.
No, that is also unlocked until after Reformation. That said, when an Emperor turns Hellenic openly after restoring the Empire, there are a couple of occasions where conversions are demanded by event to the vassals, while, if converting secretly through the Delve into the Classics decision, the ruler has access to the existing Secret Cult mechanics to recruit other people or introduce his children to the faith discreetly.
The general idea is that if a random ruler is openly following the faith before the reformation has happened the religion has not yet recovered enough cohesion and authority for it to have access to the Demand Conversion function.
 
No, that is also unlocked until after Reformation. That said, when an Emperor turns Hellenic openly after restoring the Empire, there are a couple of occasions where conversions are demanded by event to the vassals, while, if converting secretly through the Delve into the Classics decision, the ruler has access to the existing Secret Cult mechanics to recruit other people or introduce his children to the faith discreetly.
The general idea is that if a random ruler is openly following the faith before the reformation has happened the religion has not yet recovered enough cohesion and authority for it to have access to the Demand Conversion function.
Oooh, makes sense. Thanks, mate!
 
As unreformed ho holy wars, and no subjugation.

Yes.
Makes sense. Although with raiding and defensive holy wars I know I will at least be getting that reformation pretty fast.

Seems kind of weird that Civilized Hellens can raid but Zunists can't. Or has that changed?