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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

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Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

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The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
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Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

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While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

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Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

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First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

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Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
because many English themselves are of mixed Celto-Germanic heritage

My maternal grandfather was a Price(welsh traced back to a small village outside Cardiff), my maternal grandmother a Forbes(Clan originated in Aberdeenshire) and my paternal grandfather is Irish and going back to the 1600s I have ancestors in Cornwall.

I'm still a proud Englishman with a good and healthy loathing of the Scots and French and think all Welsh have an unnatural thing for sheep :p
It goes further back, they did some DNA research and found the English are descended from same stock as the Welsh and Scots. They simply assimilated into the invaders Anglo Saxon culture and language.
 
More of a minor update, but, since the topic was raised here: after talking about the matter internally, we have decided to move one of the Hellenic holy sites, from Abydos to Syracuse.

From a historical perspective, Syracuse was a fairly important city all the way until the earliest start dates (when its importance starts to wane), and, before Christianity, it was home to several notable Hellenic temples.

From a gameplay perspective, it reduces the clustering of Holy Sites in Greece and gives Italian rulers a more easily accessible holy site to use Delve into the Classics (without needing to wage war against the Papacy/ERE/Egypt).

On that can you rename the Roman retinue building legionary barracks? It makes little sense for a Christian Rome to suddenly start glorifying pagan war gods.
 
More of a minor update, but, since the topic was raised here: after talking about the matter internally, we have decided to move one of the Hellenic holy sites, from Abydos to Syracuse.

From a historical perspective, Syracuse was a fairly important city all the way until the earliest start dates (when its importance starts to wane), and, before Christianity, it was home to several notable Hellenic temples.

From a gameplay perspective, it reduces the clustering of Holy Sites in Greece and gives Italian rulers a more easily accessible holy site to use Delve into the Classics (without needing to wage war against the Papacy/ERE/Egypt).
Great decision! And don't forget about Mount Etna, which I think is roughly in the province.
 
It goes further back, they did some DNA research and found the English are descended from same stock as the Welsh and Scots. They simply assimilated into the invaders Anglo Saxon culture and language.
It's not quite that simple - The study found that the English had significant DNA from both the Celts and Anglo-Saxons, getting increasingly Anglo-Saxon the further east you go. In CK2 terms, the English are a melting pot of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon.

Also, it's worth pointing out there's a significant difference between the Scots, who are Goidelic (The group comprising the three forms of Gaelic: Irish, Scots and Manx), and the Welsh, who are Brittonic (The Welsh, Bretons and Cornish). You might be thinking of the Cumbric Kingdom of Strathclyde, which has much closer relations to Welsh (And IIRC is represented In-Game as Welsh).
 
It's not quite that simple - The study found that the English had significant DNA from both the Celts and Anglo-Saxons, getting increasing Anglo-Saxon the further east you go. In CK2 terms, the English are a melting pot of Celtic and Anglo Saxon.

Also, it's worth pointing out there's a significant difference between the Scots, who are Goidelic (The group comprising the three forms of Gaelic: Irish, Scots and Manx), and the Welsh, who are Brittonic (The Welsh, Bretons and Cornish). You might be thinking of the Cumbric Kingdom of Strathclyde, which has much closer relations to Welsh (And IIRC is represented In-Game as Welsh).
If you want to get into the nitty gritty of it strictly speaking Cumbric covered everything north of the Humber and Mersey a lot of evidence suggests the saxon hold on the north was a lot weaker and precarious than south of the Humber-Mersey line.
 
It's not quite that simple - The study found that the English had significant DNA from both the Celts and Anglo-Saxons, getting increasing Anglo-Saxon the further east you go. In CK2 terms, the English are a melting pot of Celtic and Anglo Saxon.

Also, it's worth pointing out there's a significant difference between the Scots, who are Goidelic (The group comprising the three forms of Gaelic: Irish, Scots and Manx), and the Welsh, who are Brittonic (The Welsh, Bretons and Cornish). You might be thinking of the Cumbric Kingdom of Strathclyde, which has much closer relations to Welsh (And IIRC is represented In-Game as Welsh).
If I recall the study also pointed out they could not differentiate between Anglo-Saxon and Viking genetic influence due too the two groups being so similar.
 
If you want to get into the nitty gritty of it strictly speaking Cumbric covered everything north of the Humber and Mersey
True, I simply used Strathclyde as it was the last place Cumbric is thought to have survived and it exists in the CK2 timeline.

If I recall the study also pointed out they could not differentiate between Anglo-Saxon and Viking genetic influence due too the two groups being so similar.
Whilst I don't know the answer to this, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

The Anglo-Saxons consisted of Angles, Jutes and Saxons, the first two of which come from opposite sides of the modern German-Danish border. Needless the say, many of the Vikings came from similar areas.
 
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More of a minor update, but, since the topic was raised here: after talking about the matter internally, we have decided to move one of the Hellenic holy sites, from Abydos to Syracuse.

From a historical perspective, Syracuse was a fairly important city all the way until the earliest start dates (when its importance starts to wane), and, before Christianity, it was home to several notable Hellenic temples.

From a gameplay perspective, it reduces the clustering of Holy Sites in Greece and gives Italian rulers a more easily accessible holy site to use Delve into the Classics (without needing to wage war against the Papacy/ERE/Egypt).

Thank you so much!

I'm going to enjoy playing as a Hellenic King of Sicily, with Islamic threats to the South & West and Christian threats from the North & East.
 
Also, it's worth pointing out there's a significant difference between the Scots, who are Goidelic (The group comprising the three forms of Gaelic: Irish, Scots and Manx), and the Welsh, who are Brittonic (The Welsh, Bretons and Cornish). You might be thinking of the Cumbric Kingdom of Strathclyde, which has much closer relations to Welsh (And IIRC is represented In-Game as Welsh).

Linguistically and culturally in terms of CK2, Scots are Gaelic. But in terms of groups of people, they're largely Brittonic.

The Scots are made up of a few Gaels who came over from Ireland and had the subkingdom of Dál Riada that was between the Isles and NE Ireland and the west coast of Scotland, and also the Picts, who were the whole rest of now-Scotland, and the Anglo-Saxons who were on the east coast and border region. Dál Riada ended up separated from NE Ireland, and was left in now-Scotland with Pictland to the east of it.

The Picts ended up gaelicising over the course of a few generations - and this wasn't done through conquest, but rather assimilation. There are a few theories going on how it happened (one being that a Gaelic chief ended up inheriting a lot of Pictish land after a large Pictish/Viking battle), but what was definitely a major factor was that Irish was a written language at the time, while Pictish was not.
 
Linguistically and culturally in terms of CK2, Scots are Gaelic. But in terms of groups of people, they're largely Brittonic.

The Scots are made up of a few Gaels who came over from Ireland and had the subkingdom of Dál Riada that was between the Isles and NE Ireland and the west coast of Scotland, and also the Picts, who were the whole rest of now-Scotland, and the Anglo-Saxons who were on the east coast and border region. Dál Riada ended up separated from NE Ireland, and was left in now-Scotland with Pictland to the east of it.
We don't actually know who the Picts were to any level of certainty - Their lack, as you say, of a written language plays a large part in this. We assume they were Celtic, and what little of their language has been discovered (Mainly from a few personal/place names written exclusively in Ogham script) bares resemblance to Brittonic, but we really don't know enough to definitively say that they were Brittonic in and of themselves - Merely that there was a close relation.

When talking about this early on in history, Scots refers exclusively to the Gaelic peoples of northern Britain, the 'Scotti' in Latin. It's only later on, after the assimilation of Pictland into Dàl Riada, that 'Scots' begins to apply to anyone from the Kingdom of Alba.
 
We don't actually know who the Picts were to any level of certainty - Their lack, as you say, of a written language plays a large part in this. We assume they were Celtic, and what little of their language has been discovered (Mainly from a few personal/place names written exclusively in Ogham script) bares resemblance to Brittonic, but we really don't know enough to definitively say that they were Brittonic in and of themselves - Merely that there was a close relation.

When talking about this early on in history, Scots refers exclusively to the Gaelic peoples of northern Britain, the 'Scotti' in Latin. It's only later on, after the assimilation of Pictland into Dàl Riada, that 'Scots' begins to apply to anyone from the Kingdom of Alba.

We can with a bit certainty say the language they spoke was definitely Britonnic there is enough evidence from place names and recorded names from various sources to confirm Pictish was indeed a Brittonic language. Anything beyond that is more open to debate
 
We can with a bit certainty say the language they spoke was definitely Britonnic there is enough evidence from place names and recorded names from various sources to confirm Pictish was indeed a Brittonic language. Anything beyond that is more open to debate
We could probably have this debate all day - Heck, people have been debating it since Bede and that was almost 1300 years ago.

That being said we've probably derailed this thread enough already: the pre-Saxon peoples of Britain don't exactly bear a great deal of relevance to Hellenism. We don't want to invoke the wrath of Silfae/Snow Crystal.
 
We could probably have this debate all day - Heck, people have been debating it since Bede and that was almost 1300 years ago.

That being said we've probably derailed this thread enough already: the pre-Saxon peoples of Britain don't exactly bear a great deal of relevance to Hellenism. We don't want to invoke the wrath of Silfae/Snow Crystal.
Dev Diary threads going off the rails is the cause of release date lateness.

And I am glad that the holy site got moved. So now we have Olympia, Athens, Syracuse, Alexandria, and Rome. That seems like a nicely spread set. It is fairly similar to Judaism (Jerusalem, Sinai (1 kingdom south), Samaria (1 kingdom north), Persian Capital (1 empire east), and Job's tomb (2 kingdoms south-east)).
 
Putting things back on track is Field of Mars really the most appropriate name for the roman retinue building? Id find it a bit unrealistic if I took the roman renaissance derision but stayed Christian. Why on earth are the retinue building going to be named after a pagan war god?
 
Dev Diary threads going off the rails is the cause of release date lateness.
Dev diary lateness, too. 1:20pm Pacific Standard Time on a Friday, and nothing. It's usually up sometime after midnight :eek:


Id find it a bit unrealistic if I took the roman renaissance derision but stayed Christian. Why on earth are the retinue building going to be named after a pagan war god?
Like days of the week?
 
Dev diary lateness, too. 1:20pm Pacific Standard Time on a Friday, and nothing. It's usually up sometime after midnight :eek:



Like days of the week?

Well its half 10 in Sweden right now and days of there week are a little different to reviving a culture then training troops in a peudocomitentenses style in an age dominated by heavy cavalry and to boot calling there regimental centers after a pagan god of war that hasn't been worshiped for at least 400 years.
 
Didn't the names "camp of mars/field of mars" remain in use in eurppe for places whrre soldiers paraded? I mean, we've got a champ de mars right now here in paris, france and last i checked we're not hellenic.