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CK2 Dev Diary #103 - Long live the King!

Greetings.

Today we will put Pagans aside, go back to good old Catholics, and explore one of the new features coming for them with Holy Fury: Coronation Ceremonies.

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With this expansion, succeeding to the throne of a Catholic Kingdom or Empire will not be a simple matter of gaining the title itself. The new ruler will need to organize a Coronation Ceremony (via new intrigue decision) and be recognized as legitimate by a notable member of the Catholic Church.
If a Catholic ruler fails to be officially crowned, he will see his popularity slowly fade away each year, as his vassals grow more and more restless under what they perceive as an illegitimate King.

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Coronation is divided into two phases: preparation and ceremony.
During the preparation, the ruler will decide whom he wishes to be crowned by, he will meet the Church’s demands, and invest money to organize the ceremony. In the second phase, the ruler will host the ceremony itself, interacting with guests and ultimately receiving his crown.

When organizing a ceremony, a Catholic King can choose between three possible options when it comes to officiant priests: he can be crowned by a low-status theocratic vassal within his realm, by a powerful theocratic vassal within his realm (such as a Cardinal, Antipope or Prince-Bishop), or by the Pope himself. Catholic Emperors who fail to enact the Free Investiture succession on the other hand will be limited in their selection only to the Pope.
While being crowned by a local Bishop is a lot less prestigious, it is also much cheaper, as higher-ranking members of the Church will be prone to make outlandish requests, especially if they dislike the ruler requesting them to officiate his coronation.

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Requests may vary a lot, especially when it comes to the Pope: the Holy Father might ask you to change your realm’s Investiture laws, wage war against an Excommunicated ruler on behalf of the Papacy, or to restore some of the Central Italian provinces to the Holy See.
Be sure to be in good relations with the Pope before asking for a coronation if you wish to receive a more tolerable offer.

Once the demands of your chosen priest have been met, you will be able to select a budget for your ceremony which will determine the kind of coronation you will receive, the kind of flavor events tied to it and the number of guests participating in it.
An extravagant coronation is a prestigious event to which all your vassals, courtiers and even neighboring Christian rulers are invited, a secluded coronation is a private feast to which only your Council will have access to.

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Once the ceremony has been concluded, your character will receive a specific trait tied to the priest that crowned him, as well as retain any additional perks granted by the flavor events experienced during the feast leading up to the coronation.

You might have noticed from the screenshots that this new mechanic affects character portraits as well: Catholic Kings and Emperors that have not been crowned will no longer wear the high-tier headgear in Holy Fury, defaulting to the Ducal band instead until their rank has been officially recognized by the Church (naturally, if you do not own Holy Fury, Catholic Kings and Emperors will wear the appropriate gear by default as before).

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This is not the only portrait-related addition though: Holy Fury will bring to the game a series of special crown artifacts that will be visible on portraits whenever the characters are wearing them. Most of these artifacts can only be used when the character meets certain requirements and they are often tied to a specific title rather than a character’s dynasty.

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And this should be about it for this week.
 
In fairness you did say "Christian heresies", and not specifically "Catholic heresies" hence the question.
The Catholic and Orthodox view of one another is not that the other is a heresy, but rather that it is 'valid but irregular'. And while some medieval writers such as Dante treated Islam as a Christian heresy, I don't think it's mainstream position anywhere these days, and it wouldn't be responsible to make it the working assumption for a game.

nd
 
Will there be wartime crowns visible on portraits for rulers leading troops/wearing armor?

Not so much war time crowns, though crowns may be included.

They've mentioned that all rulers regardless of education will switch to battle clothes when leading troops.
 
The Catholic and Orthodox view of one another is not that the other is a heresy, but rather that it is 'valid but irregular'. And while some medieval writers such as Dante treated Islam as a Christian heresy, I don't think it's mainstream position anywhere these days, and it wouldn't be responsible to make it the working assumption for a game.

nd

Well, it's not the proper place for a discussion on this topic. My apologies for the OT question.
 
In my opinion, if you have a crown in your inventory, you should be able to wear it.

"My liege, you cannot wear that pretty hat. You don't control the hat's kingdom."

That's silly. I definitely agree that the Roman laurel wreath should be Roman-exclusive, but no one can tell me, their KING or EMPEROR, that I can't put the Crown of Persia that I stole on my head.

IIRC, the Crown of Hungary was one of the only realms where the crown itself was representative of the realm and the guy wearing it derived his power from it.
 
This looks like an interesting feature. Will Fratricelli characters have access to a similar mechanic? It would make a certain amount of sense in my mind for them to do so as far as gameplay is concerned.
 
While very cool for the player, I'm not sure how I feel about this for my vassal kings. I don't want my vassals giving their (my) land away, changing their laws, or fighting in arbitrary wars just to get a crown trait/negate an opinion malus. I could see this creating a bit of chaos in a large realm with lots of king vassals.
When it comes to donating land that you own, it is something that only Popes ask to only Emperors and only about historically-held Papal lands (mostly central Italy), so you do not have to worry about vassal Kings giving away pieces of your realm. On the other hand, when it comes to donating land, the Pope will not care if you own the land directly or not. If you do not own it directly though, he will ask for a vassal transfer rather than for a title transfer (so for example, at the 1066 start, the Pope might ask the HREmperor to give him Matilda in exchange for the crown, which will turn her into a vassal of the Papal State).

So based on corrections made on previous pages of this thread this mechanic will work only on Catholics and Fraticelli Feudal rulers of King rank or superior. Right? No Cathar, no Waldesian, no Lollard, no Merchant Republic of King tier? Is there any malus for being a woman when you receive the crown? Or maybe a worse negative modifier for being a woman and uncrowned?
Yes, Catholic and Fraticelli only.
As for women, there's a couple of flavor events during the coronation ceremony, but it works largely the same; no additional malus.
Coronations are only for Feudal landed rulers (no viceroyalties, no merchant republics, etc.).
@Silfae
Great DD!
Some questions :
1. What if the most powerful cleric in your realm is your prisoner when you start a coronation events chain?
2. If you're an Emperor and have an uncrowned vassal king - will this make revoking their title easier?
3. If your title is usurped and then you recover it - will a new coronation be needed?
4. Likewise, if you have 2 or more kingly titles and you loose the one for which you were crowned - do you need a second coronation? Likewise, what if you change your primary title?
5. If a non-Catholic ruler converts - is there a chance of free coronation or a gift of a crown from the church? As an incentive to convert.
6. Any special circumstances for the kingdom of Jerusalem? Like getting a dislike from the most pious people for presuming to take the title that can only be held by Jesus? Historically Godfrey of Bullion refused the title, because he believed that only Christ can be the true King of Jerusalem.

1. If imprisoned, incapable, etc. the priest will just be considered unavailable (before the chain starts). Given that the ceremony does not last for very long, it is unlikely for something to happen to him before the end. Unless you are particularly unlucky and he dies before the end (in which case you get notified and the coronation is cancelled), the coronation will continue to the end.
2. No.
3. No, once you have been crowned and have received the Crowned by X trait, that's it for that specific ruler.
4. Again, no, just one coronation per ruler. It was discussed if we wanted to make it once per King/Emperor title, but it was decided that it would have become either frustrating or spammy.
5. No. That could have been nice, but unfortunately no time for something like that. Mass Conversion still has its separate post-conversion flavor and perks.
6. Not specifically for the Kingdom of Jerusalem, but, once a Crusade is over, if a Crusader Kingdom is established, the first King gets a free Papal Coronation.
@Silfae What happens if my Byzantine emperor (in a fit of madness) decides to become Catholic? Does he need to get crowned? Will the Coronation malus apply from conversion, or from when he ascended to the throne?
Yes, any Catholic King or Emperor qualifies.
If I recall correctly, it should be from conversion. The ticking modifier is handled by a hidden variable checked yearly.

Will there be wartime crowns visible on portraits for rulers leading troops/wearing armor?
Crusader Kings have a chance to spawn a special crown that, if worn, is shown when they are leading troops. I believe Snow Crystal leaked it yesterday?
There are other similar special helmets that work in the same way, though I would not define them as "crowns" visually.
 
In my opinion, if you have a crown in your inventory, you should be able to wear it.

"My liege, you cannot wear that pretty hat. You don't control the hat's kingdom."

That's silly. I definitely agree that the Roman laurel wreath should be Roman-exclusive, but no one can tell me, their KING or EMPEROR, that I can't put the Crown of Persia that I stole on my head.

IIRC, the Crown of Hungary was one of the only realms where the crown itself was representative of the realm and the guy wearing it derived his power from it.
You normally don't wear your captured trophies. You display them, but using them...
 
I feel you should at least enable the event for MRs. They are, of course, quite uninvolved with affairs of the clergy but it's just that they need a lot of flavor.

Thinking some filthy merchants are worthy of proper coronations? Pfft. Peasants...
 
In my opinion, if you have a crown in your inventory, you should be able to wear it.

"My liege, you cannot wear that pretty hat. You don't control the hat's kingdom."

That's silly. I definitely agree that the Roman laurel wreath should be Roman-exclusive, but no one can tell me, their KING or EMPEROR, that I can't put the Crown of Persia that I stole on my head.

IIRC, the Crown of Hungary was one of the only realms where the crown itself was representative of the realm and the guy wearing it derived his power from it.

I can definitely see this be the case. You using the Crown would definitely mock people of that culture / religion / realm though. So rather than saying: "Nope, can't wear it" by default it should come with diplomatic consequences, both good and bad. Bad in that the original owners feel mocked, much like the Rum sultanate, but at the same time it should give you prestige and perhaps a bonus to your own people. "foreign conqueror!"
 
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@Silfae
Since my one sentence questions usually get drown in other waves of comments, I might as well do more question list.
1) How does this affect the situations where you create completely new kingdom yourself (as a catholic), nothing special and you just run the event after creating the kingdom?
2) Since there is smith create jewels option in decision, will there be more variables for the crowns so they dont all look the same? (for newly created kingdoms and kingdoms without special crown)
3) Another crown question, will we be able to create some other unique crowns like the Crown of Saint Wenceslas used for crowning Bohemian kings? (I know it was created in 14th century, which is kinda late for the game, but it was based on previous Premyslid crown and creating unique crowns specificaly for certain land was kinda the usuall procedure when realm got really strong and the smith option doesnt really represent it)
4) What happens with the crowned trait if you change religion?
5) What if you are a king of some realm for already 30 years and decide to convert to catholicism, do you suddenly get malus for not being crowned?
 
When it comes to donating land that you own, it is something that only Popes ask to only Emperors and only about historically-held Papal lands (mostly central Italy), so you do not have to worry about vassal Kings giving away pieces of your realm. On the other hand, when it comes to donating land, the Pope will not care if you own the land directly or not. If you do not own it directly though, he will ask for a vassal transfer rather than for a title transfer (so for example, at the 1066 start, the Pope might ask the HREmperor to give him Matilda in exchange for the crown, which will turn her into a vassal of the Papal State).
Ah, cool. Any chance we can get an example of what a Papal demand might be if the Pope likes you a lot? Just some money?

As for MR coronations (I know it's not a thing in this DLC), a "Marriage of the Sea" type of decision could be cool. I know there already is a small flavor event for this, but it's nothing like this new coronation decision.
 
@Silfae
Since my one sentence questions usually get drown in other waves of comments, I might as well do more question list.
1) How does this affect the situations where you create completely new kingdom yourself (as a catholic), nothing special and you just run the event after creating the kingdom?
2) Since there is smith create jewels option in decision, will there be more variables for the crowns so they dont all look the same? (for newly created kingdoms and kingdoms without special crown)
3) Another crown question, will we be able to create some other unique crowns like the Crown of Saint Wenceslas used for crowning Bohemian kings? (I know it was created in 14th century, which is kinda late for the game, but it was based on previous Premyslid crown and creating unique crowns specificaly for certain land was kinda the usuall procedure when realm got really strong and the smith option doesnt really represent it)
4) What happens with the crowned trait if you change religion?
5) What if you are a king of some realm for already 30 years and decide to convert to catholicism, do you suddenly get malus for not being crowned?
1) If it is your first Kingdom then, yes, after creating it, the decision to organize a coronation will become available.
2) 3) Generic crown artifacts remain unchanged; special crowns with specific visuals are rare kinds of artifacts, usually tied to very specific occurrences (such as founding the HRE).
4) It should remain for the current ruler.
5) No, the modifier starts ticking from the next year forward.
Ah, cool. Any chance we can get an example of what a Papal demand might be if the Pope likes you a lot? Just some money?
If the Pope likes you a lot, money is likely going to be the request.
Otherwise it can be something like changing your realm's Investiture Law, or granting him independence, then moving forward to the various types of wars and land grants.
 
Yes, any Catholic King or Emperor qualifies.
If I recall correctly, it should be from conversion. The ticking modifier is handled by a hidden variable checked yearly.
Is it really good idea? I mean, catholics recognised royal titles of orthodox christians. And for non-christian king converting, one would assume free coronation would be thrown in "off screen" as an incentive by any bishop who was baptising him.
I think king converting to catholicism from other (non-heretic) christian faith should automatically get at least lowest level coronation trait (to acknowledge he was already crowned by bishop with apostolic succession), possibly even middle one, because Ecumenical patriarch would probably count as "high ranking bishop".

I suppose getting crowned by lowest tier bishop would be very easy to get, but argument is not from difficulty, but from roleplay.

If the Pope likes you a lot, money is likely going to be the request.
Otherwise it can be something like changing your realm's Investiture Law, or granting him independence, then moving forward to the various types of wars and land grants.

Really? Even vassalised popes are gonna make greedy requests like that? They don't know who's in charge now?
I am becoming increasingly grateful there is new decision to sack Rome....
 
If the Pope likes you a lot, money is likely going to be the request.
Otherwise it can be something like changing your realm's Investiture Law, or granting him independence, then moving forward to the various types of wars and land grants.
Nice.

One more question and I'll stop bothering you. If crown laws forbid vassals from waging war, will they still get war demands (excommunication, Papal state wars)? Do these demands override crown laws?

Thanks for all the answers!
 
Just FYI, one of the original devs for CK2+ now works for Paradox. You might know them as "Wiz". The head dev from the AGOT mod, "BlackNinja" also works for Paradox as well.

As has already been made clear, many features are not really based on those in mods, as they are all drawing from the common inspiration of history.

However, even without that, are you really going to bother Paradox over this when the head devs for some of these mods now work for them, and likely played a deliberate role in shaping the creative process of CK2's development? Are you going to accuse these mod authors of stealing from themselves, or attack Paradox for not giving them credit despite employing them as a result, and more?
You're right, of course, I ahem, I...
- wait, where did I say I was accusing them of stealing? o_O
No offense, but did you actually even read my posts here?
I was not accusing anyone, I was merely stating that I felt "irritated". This irritation has since been resolved by an official response from a Paradox dev. I apologized for potential misinterpretations of my wording that could potentially have been read as diminishing some Paradox dev's work on Holy Fury features. But I am not going to take back what I said because I never meant it as any sort of accusation of plagiarism. I honestly believe I have been polite the whole time, voicing my personal opinion but not intending to start any feud or whatever.

On your post: I am well aware of Paradox history of employing modders, and their goodwill towards the modding community. Heck, being a modder myself I have happily witnessed these occasions - iirc Silfae has been a modder before as well, producing many quality portraits for Stellaris.
It might just be for that very reason I felt irritated when Holy Fury unveiled so many features that had similar counterparts in various mods. Maybe I was seeing the current Paradox devs too much as fellow (ex-)modders, who would be bound by some unspoken code of conduct. Yet internal workings at Paradox are obviously different, which is why I had diverging understandings of what steps were involved in PDX feature design - and again, that confusion has been cleared. On the other hand, I feel like I have been misunderstood as well by some people, which the other post you quoted provides an example of.

In conclusion, I feel like the whole affair has been needlessly blown up now, and we should all calm down again. And in spite of previous heated discussion, I hope that the good relationship between Paradox devs and modders can be maintained - even for people like me who occasionally voice their discontent ;)
 
I can definitely see this be the case. You using the Crown would definitely mock people of that culture / religion / realm though. So rather than saying: "Nope, can't wear it" by default it should come with diplomatic consequences, both good and bad. Bad in that the original owners feel mocked, much like the Rum sultanate, but at the same time it should give you prestige and perhaps a bonus to your own people. "foreign conqueror!"
I see it the other way around. If you start using pagan artifacts yourself you risk being called a pagan, and for good reason. One thing is displaying your foes captured items and another one is use them as if they were yours.