CK2 Dev Diary #103 - Long live the King!

[zagy20]

Now that crowning is a mechanic, there is no reason to not have Edgar the Ætheling as the uncrowned king of England in late 1066.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Now that crowning is a mechanic, there is no reason to not have Edgar the Ætheling as the uncrowned king of England in late 1066.

Sure there is.

Harold was de jure and de facto King until his death/defeat.

After that, William was pretty much King in all ways, leaving Edgar as a claimant without much of an army.

 

[zagy20]

Sure there is.

Harold was de jure and de facto King until his death/defeat.

After that, William was pretty much King in all ways, leaving Edgar as a claimant without much of an army.

While it's true Edgar had no forces of his own, I would say it was more a lack of initial support from the earls that led to the capitulation. He was pretty much the last unifying figure the Anglo-Saxons had, evident as they rallied around him several years later, thus I don't see why an earlier attempt couldn't be made for the game's sake. I think at the very least he should have the county of Bedford post-conquest minus a claim on the kingdom. I know it won't happen but I can still dream.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

While it's true Edgar had no forces of his own, I would say it was more a lack of initial support from the earls that led to the capitulation. He was pretty much the last unifying figure the Anglo-Saxons had, evident as they rallied around him several years later, thus I don't see why an earlier attempt couldn't be made for the game's sake. I think at the very least he should have the county of Bedford post-conquest minus a claim on the kingdom. I know it won't happen but I can still dream.

TBH, I'd give him the claim, so as to allow for the support/revolt to be able to happen.

I'm not sure if there's an organic way to give it to him in the earlier 1066 bookmark if the conquest succeeds (either William or Harald - or at the outside chance Sveyn).

 

[zagy20]

TBH, I'd give him the claim, so as to allow for the support/revolt to be able to happen.

I'm not sure if there's an organic way to give it to him in the earlier 1066 bookmark if the conquest succeeds (either William or Harald - or at the outside chance Sveyn).

I was thinking that he should have a claim up to the 1070s but lose it to represent how he essentially gave up any hope of becoming king however on second thought there wouldn't be much point in going through the bother as it would accomplish very little for actual gameplay.

I think a better solution would be in 1068 have Edgar landed in say York or somewhere and have Edwin and Morcar as his vassals in a war for England similar to the War of the Two Eriks, perhaps supported by Scotland, Gwynned and/or Denmark. Said events would be a bit of a historical amalgamation, but the historical representation of the Norman Conquest in game is already dodgy so it wouldn't exactly be any less accurate. It'd just be to represent the later Anglo-Saxon rebellions and attempts of Edgar to become king.

 

[Svennie 135]

@Silfae I don't know if it's already asked, but if you are for example the HRE and the pope is your vassal. Will he ask for independence if you want him to crown you. Also does he count too as "the most powerful clergy man in the realm" aka option 2 from the 3 choices?

 

[Rockphed]

@Silfae I don't know if it's already asked, but if you are for example the HRE and the pope is your vassal. Will he ask for independence if you want him to crown you. Also does he count too as "the most powerful clergy man in the realm" aka option 2 from the 3 choices?

Catholic Emperors will only be able to ask the pope if unless they have free investiture.

 

[tijgerklauw]

What do you think: Will Charlemagne get the crowned by the pope modifier when he is crowned holy roman emporor by event? It is another dlc though...

 

[Will Steel]

If you are going to add cursed artifacts, I have a suggestion: the legendary Singhasan Battisi (सिंहासन बत्तीसी) story from 11th and 12th century India. It fits the mythological/artifact part of the game perfectly.

For reference, let me post a very short summary of the story:

Spoiler: The Story

The protagonist of the story was a real man, King Bhoj Parmar (1010-1055) of Malva. He is historically known for being a magnanimous man - a great scholar, architect, writer as well as a successful general whose influence is felt even today. One of the "great men" of his age. He was respected by almost everyone on the subcontinent, and very popular with his people. The book itself is supposedly written a few years after his death.

Variation of the story goes that one day, Bhoj gets a report that a bunch of children near the capital are playing king-and-courtier (you know, everywhere around the ancient and medieval world there was a game where children would take turn playing as kings and courtiers) in a village near the capital of Avanti (or Ujjayini). There was a big odd mound popping out on the ground, and the kids playing the king would sit on that. The anomaly was - every time a kid sat on the mound he started giving judgements and contemplating things far beyond his age. Every illiterate village kid who took turn to be a "king" and sit on the mound, would actually start behaving like an actual emperor with a knowledge that no kid could have.

One kid (by most accounts an illiterate teenage cattle herder) starts solving major disputes and handing out sentences with great precision, to the point that people from across Malva start visiting him for very fair judgement and solution of issues. Usually, the the justice thing in India was always the work of King's court as well as his legally appointed vassals (from emperor all the way down to the local lords). The fact that people would choose to travel long distances to see the boy instead of the King, became talk of the day.

Bhoj of course, was intrigued. The king's courtiers and soldiers arrived, cleared the mound and started digging. They suddenly uncover pieces of buried ruin from distant past...and then they excavated and pulled out an almost completely intact gold and jewel-embedded throne.

It turns out this throne was throne of Emperor Chandragupta Vikramaditya, of the Gupta Empire. And in context:

- Gupta Empire was the second of the three greatest Indian empires. Managed to unite all of India indirectly, was incredibly powerful, and wealthier than any other state on earth in the antiquity.

- Emperor Vikramaditya himself is regarded as one of the greatest Indian emperors in history. His reign was so successful that he reached almost legendary status, if it wasn't for the fact that he was a real man and ruled from around 380-415 AD. There is also a mythical "Emperor Vikramaditya" from late Hellenistic era, but two are often regarded to be same due to different dating in different Indian chronicles.

Either way, both were known for three things - their amazing sense of justice, holding their court in Avanti, and being very successful emperors in all aspects.

- Avanti/Ujjayini was kinda like the "alternate" capital of imperial India until 647, and especially under Guptas (whose official capital remained Pataliputra, much like Rome VS Constantinople/Mediolanum). And it was a major city for both religion, art and trade, and remained so under King Bhoj as well. So of course the imperial throne would be there.

Now, Bhoj has the throne hauled back to the palace. And the text I read noted how Bhoj considers it eerie - after six centuries the throne has not deteriorated much for some reason, and it holds 32 statues of women that seem to look directly at him. They are so lifelike, it both scares and amazes him.

Later, when he tries to sit on it, one of the statues actually comes alive. The statue introduce herself as a cursed Apsara (divine female spirit) who was bound and embedded to the throne due to a curse (I forgot but it is explained in the medieval book). She tells him that not just anyone can simply sit on the throne which once belong to the great emperor. He also has to have qualities that man had (equivalent of all great traits and high piety/prestige in the game), and only then can he be worthy of the throne.

Story has variants but Apsara then makes Bhoj hallucinate and find himself looking at actual Emperor Vikramaditya of the early 5th century AD. They then watch him commit a great deed even if it meant sacrificing himself, and then the hallucination ends. Then the Apsara again tells the king that he may sit on the throne only if he is worthy. She turns back into a statue, but this time she "dies" and the turns into a dull stone/bronze statue and no longer lifelike. In other variations the spirit flies away.

Each night Bhoj tries to sit on the throne, awakening one of the 32 divine spirits one by one. They tell him another story of one of his great deeds (or hallucinate him into watching it live, or in one story's variation actually put him into the shoes of Vikramaditya himself). They then warn him that he may sit on the throne only if he is worthy enough, and turn into dull stone statues, never to talk again.

The stories range across a wide spectrum - selfless sacrifice, good virtues, extreme honesty, and sometimes statecraft and adherence to the traditional Indian laws of war.

Each time, Bhoj sees how great Emperor Vikramaditya was, and each time contemplates how he is regarded as one of the greatest Indians alive, yet can't even get close to the man in terms of virtue. He wonders why that cattle herder got to sit on it successfully, and I forget but it's explained in the original story as well (yep he was possessed).

The last one sternly warns him that he'd better not touch the throne unless he possesses the same qualities and greatness of Emperor Vikramaditya. Then the Apsara turns back into a "dead" statue, finally ending the curse. The throne also loses its divine nature - it turns from a bright gold into a very dull brown, its pedals turn to rusty bronze and iron and the embedded jewels either fall off or disappear.

Bhoj finally realizes that he can never be as great as Vikram was. But he attempts to sit on the throne anyway, and as soon as he does he gets cursed. He feels a sharp, terrible pain and terrifying thoughts, but his body stops reacting and he can't get away. As he struggles, he hears a final echo from the old emperor and the warnings of the spirits, and gets thrown off the seat.

He then promptly leaves the throne alone, having learned his lesson from the stories, and goes on to rule as one of India's greatest medieval kings, writing books and designing entire cities (including the one I currently live in).

He dies in 1055, his successors rule the Parmar kingdom but aren't as successful as King Bhoj was. until they get rekt by Ghurids and Delhi Sultanate in 1305.

___________________________________________________________

So the question - how to implement this into the game?

There are multiple ways:

A) Add the book Sinhasan Battisi to appear in 11th or 12th century in India. Prestige and piety boost, and probably give a rare chance to give virtue trait or two. After all, it was and still is a famous work of literature.

B) Add a mythological event-chain (i.e. appearing only if mythological events are turned on) for a King-level ruler of Malwa with Ujjayini/Avanti set as capital. This story I mentioned above could be played out in a short form.

- The player's choice would leave him either cursed and painfully dead like Bhoj almost did, with his spirit bound to the throne. Or they could escape, like Bhoj did. Or avoid the entire ordeal, at the cost of large amount of prestige and probably a trait. Why? That's because your character failed in his duty of maintaining justice compared to a rural cattle herder.

- If a good ruler with no bad traits gets the chain, he/she would be able to get the good ending of the chain. Then the throne becomes an artifact. And since it is now free of curse, future rulers can use it and it can be stolen in raids/given away.

As for what it could look like, here have a low-poly image:

Spoiler

- Make the event only fire once or twice per game, and not in early start dates.

C) Also, since the last man of the Gupta dynasty (or at least a distant descendent from that dynasty) is actually alive in 769 AD, an optional small event chain about "reclaiming the throne" for that dynasty would be nice. That would require restoring the Gupta Empire, whatever that may mean (conquering a big chunk of India or outright reuniting it, controlling Malva and setting your capital in Ujjayini and so on). Big prestige boost, a unique bloodline (if there isn't already), a guaranteed reincarnation event and such.

 

[Svennie 135]

Catholic Emperors will only be able to ask the pope if unless they have free investiture.

That was not my question. It is not fixed at an emperor level to have free investiture, so you can choose. My question was about when you are able to ask the pope to crown you and he is your vassal, if he will ask independance in return.

 

[zagy20]

@Silfae I don't know if it's already asked, but if you are for example the HRE and the pope is your vassal. Will he ask for independence if you want him to crown you. Also does he count too as "the most powerful clergy man in the realm" aka option 2 from the 3 choices?

I don't know for certain but their wording in the dev diary says that more powerful clergy will be prone to asking for more outrageous demands especially if they dislike you. Thus the implication, in the context of your question, is the Pope CAN ask for independence in return for crowing though that is just one of many possible demands. Furthermore, given personal relationships are taken into account, the Pope probably wouldn't ask for such a thing if he likes you.

As for the second question, no idea. Although the Pope would technically be 'the most powerful bishop in the realm', I imagine imagine it is based on rank rather than semantics. So you'd have three choices of a low ranked, generally baron, level Bishop; a cardinal, anti-Pope or Prince-Bishop, probably of count or duchy level; and the de jure head of religion, the Pope.

 

[Delta5ff]

I started as the default king of Georgia in one of the 1066 starts, have managed to swap over from orthodox to Catholic.

When I try to get coronated it goes through the event chain bit I don't get the trait and the option to organise one is readily available again straight away.

The final event box says I've got the trait but there's no icon and I don't get anything.

Do I need a crown artefact or is this a bug?

 

[Delta5ff]

I started as the default king of Georgia in one of the 1066 starts, have managed to swap over from orthodox to Catholic.

When I try to get coronated it goes through the event chain bit I don't get the trait and the option to organise one is readily available again straight away.

The final event box says I've got the trait but there's no icon and I don't get anything.

Do I need a crown artefact or is this a bug?

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Probably a bug.
Report it in the bug forum.

 

[Delta5ff]

Probably a bug.
Report it in the bug forum.

It's was the RDU mod