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CK2 - Dev Diary #120 - Tech and Combat changes

Hello! In the next patch we will be doing some small adjustments to Technologies and Terrain Combat Modifiers, and today we will talk a bit about those changes. The main objectives were to make deciding what military technologies to invest in a bit more interesting and rebalance the value of terrain with regards to the possible (large) modifiers given by tactics. Before we start, there is the caveat that numbers are not yet final, there might be some adjustments needed after we receive testing feedback.


Technologies


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This is how the Technologies window looks now. City and Temple infrastructure were joined together, while their tax bonus revenue was slightly lowered. Shipbuilding is now an Economy Tech. The Military technologies were changed so now Infantry and Cavalry tech increase morale (up to 40%) and defense (up to 60%) of Infantry and Cavalry units, respectively. On the other hand, Skirmish and Melee technologies affect the Attack value of troops (up to 60%) and decrease the probability of using generic bad tactics. Finally, Military Organization now gives only a low overall bonus to morale (up to 20%) but keeps its importance for Retinue Size, and we added now also Reorganization speed (morale recovery) of armies.


Light Infantry and Elephants, being neither skirmish nor melee specialized troops, do not increase Attack damage. Light infantry base values were bumped a bit to compensate for this. This means that Light Infantry and Elephants will have a bigger impact with low technology, losing a bit of their edge as technology advances. But Light Infantry will also be more relevant in difficult terrain (see below).


Historical Setup of Tech Levels


We also changed the initial values of technologies a little, to be more historically asymmetrical. In the picture above you can see the Constantinople values at game start. As an advanced society, Constantinople can build more advanced buildings, and has increased Military Organization and Legalism. But the Frankish lands will have some superiority in Melee and Cavalry. The Frank/Norman Knights were a fearsome sight on the Battlefield.


Combat Modifiers


The combat tactics interplay can give a bonus of up to 900% to some troop types while making others non-attackers. To make terrain, especially difficult terrain like Mountains, more relevant for a battle, the defender bonus was increased for most infantry types, especially for light infantry (see the picture below).

Narrow Flank is a feature of a battle where the number of enemy troops that can attack is limited by the number of troops on the flank the gets the bonus. We changed Narrow Flank to both become more probable in difficult terrain and be modified in a more consistent way if you have a leader with the Battlefield Terrain Master trait. The effect of Narrow Flank was also extended to the skirmish phase, to have a larger impact in a battle.


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We hope that these changes will give you players more control over the battle conditions and thus increase the influence your decisions have over the battle outcome. Together with the tech rebalance, we hope these changes will improve the CK2 experience for both new and experienced players.


Finally, as stated before, these numbers are not final, and if you feel strongly about something, let us know.
 
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Tibetan retinue actually is predominantly a LC retinue. It has 300 LI and 100 LC. The LI uses up 210 retinue cap and the LC uses up 300 retinue cap. So 59% of what you pay for the retinue is for the LC. And the LC gets the good Harass tactic too (+300% LC offense), which essentially doubles damage output compared to pure LC that triggers the Disorganized Harass tactic (+100% LC offense).

So your 60% LC fights like 120% LC with the LI contribution added on as a free bonus.
 
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How about giving "Castle Infrastructure" some bonus for tribals?
As far as i understand it, "cities and temples" is interesting for tribals, as tribals do use temples. But playing tribal most of the time means to not have any castles but tribes instead.
So it's kind of weird to develop "Castle Infrastructure" if my people don't know castles at all.
 
Never really liked how combat tactics work in CKii
There are wayyyy too many tactics and the system is rather complicated, yet the player has little control over how tactics work. (Other than choosing the general and composition of retinues, and the second case is pointless in case of levies)
And the tactics system frequently gives unrealistic results, it heavily penalises any kind of mixture of different types of troops (which is unavoidable with levies, and also means levy buildings have less value than on paper)

I recall a test in 2014 (post-Charlemange, pre-nerf of light infantry and archers), in which 867 Bulgaria had 8000+ troops (mainly heavy infantry, light cavalry and some heavy cavalry) and the invading Magyars had 7000+ (mainly light infantry and some archers, as nomads were not implemented back then), fighting a battle with commanders of not too different skill levels on plains.

The result? 9/10 times the numerically and qualitatively superior Bulgarians lose, as the harass tactic triggered by presence of LC is hard countered by the volley tactic triggered by presence of archers.
That was neither good for gameplay nor historically realistic.

Sure, LI and A are nerfed compared to back then, but it was the combat tactics system that caused the above issue, not the imbalance of stats between different types of units.

And picking a particular tactics often means only a particular type of units deals damage, while the rest just sit and watch...This indeed penalises any mixing of units, which does not seem to be realistic, nor is it balanced for gameplay (penalises the construction of military buildings that provide levies)

The affinity system is rather dramatic, a 100% bonus during skirmish and 300% bonus during melee over a system that cannot be non-gimmickly controlled is rather silly, I think the HOI/Imperator system of tactics countering is much more sensible.

Not to mention the affinity cycle in the skirmish phase seems to be backwards, there is no way for horse archers to be a counter for foot archers.

And the skirmish phase is probably too long and deals too much damage, that it is quite normal for an army to rout after a rather long skirmish phase without any melee engagement, since all melee units have rather low skirmish defence.
It is as if an all-artillery stack in EU4 wipes out the entire enemy front rank during the first three days of the fire phase, and then there is no shock phase anymore.

I think it is reasonable to assume that barring extraordinary battlefield conditions, battles during CKII's time period would see the majority of casualties during the melee phase. This can be remedied fairly easily, by buffing the skirmish defence of all units (why would heavy infantries die faster when being shot at by annoying arrows than being struck by swords?)

And modify the tactics system to one similar to HOI/Imperator

Then technology/terrain would finally become useful

Edit: the Magyar tests were done post Charlemange, pre-horse lords. The Magyars were mainly LI and A due to being tribal.
 
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Do all the countries get at all dates new technologie levels like the byzantines or do they (as they now have) get their technology levels as how they are geographically positioned (eg. All the countries in the british and irish region get the same levels at start.)
 
Right now, the only useful technologies have been:
- Economy -
  • Castle Infrastructure
  • Improved Keeps
  • Construction*
Just a nitpick, but playing as a Merchant Republics adds Trade Practice and City Infrastructure to this list. Not that that really changes your overall point (other than nerfing Merchant Republics to the ground in early starts).
 
Just a nitpick, but playing as a Merchant Republics adds Trade Practice and City Infrastructure to this list. Not that that really changes your overall point (other than nerfing Merchant Republics to the ground in early starts).
I haven't played a merchant republic yet, so I couldn't judge based on them, thank you for the information!

Economy definitely seems to be the most useful of the technology trees as a whole. Everything in it does provide value in the game to its own degree.. unlike half of the other trees.
 
Reducing techs number is always worrying. Kinda like they dumbed down eu4 by removing sliders and other mechanics. I like the terrain changes as long as it's not too extreme. I would hate terrain being meaningless to terrain means everything kind of scenario, just please be careful with those changes.

I just hope those changes aren't testing ground for ck3. It's like huge manpower changes they tested on eu3 in preparation for eu4 in the VERY last patch, basically changing the game massively, which was very badly received by playerbase.

Not a terrible idea to update tech, but a horribly inefficient waste of time and resources at this moment when there are literally hundreds and hundreds of unaddressed bugs. More of which will be introduced by modifying the tech levels.

This is true. I love new dlcs and rebalance changes of core mechanics but this game still has so many less or more annoying bugs that still need to be fixed. So it sometimes feels a bit rushed.
 
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You need to put in some actual penalties to stacking mil organization tech if you want to change the meta away from doing so to actually choosing among the techs. As it stands the only reason to take a tech other than mil organization is role-playing...
 
But the ai will take advantage of this?
I'm not sure what you are referring to specifically, but the combat AI has been tweaked to consider where it takes fights a bit more carefully now when terrain plays a bigger role.

@Tuscany You are working on the many many bugs right?

I was so disappointed when the wonders came out with almost no bug fixes.

I mean look how they massacred my boy chalkidike!
Sorry for not being Tuscany, he's a busy man and you will have to make do with me.
Yes, we are almost always working on bugfixes and the upcoming patch has quite a decent amount of them :)
Chalkidike will rise again!
 
Tech number remains unchanged. They merged two techs and added a new one.

Oh yes. I just don't get why shipbuilding is in eco tech because it's not really eco tech since ships are exclusive used for military aspects. I guess it just didn't fit into military anymore since they wanted to keep number of techs in each category equal.
 
Oh yes. I just don't get why shipbuilding is in eco tech because it's not really eco tech since ships are exclusive used for military aspects. I guess it just didn't fit into military anymore since they wanted to keep number of techs in each category equal.
From a historical perspective it definitely makes more sense for shipbuilding to be primarily economic; it's just that in-game they don't fill that role. It might be sensible for shipbuilding to give a slight trade port tax bonus, since that's what they'd mostly be for in reality.
 
Oh yes. I just don't get why shipbuilding is in eco tech because it's not really eco tech since ships are exclusive used for military aspects. I guess it just didn't fit into military anymore since they wanted to keep number of techs in each category equal.

On the other hand, military techs all modify the combat statistics of troops while econ techs, among other things, increase the number of troops in holdings.
 
From a historical perspective it definitely makes more sense for shipbuilding to be primarily economic; it's just that in-game they don't fill that role. It might be sensible for shipbuilding to give a slight trade port tax bonus, since that's what they'd mostly be for in reality.
It would make a lot of sense to merge up shipbuilding with trade practices, since trade practices almost exclusively affects coastal provinces anyway.
 
Sorry for not being Tuscany, he's a busy man and you will have to make do with me.
Yes, we are almost always working on bugfixes and the upcoming patch has quite a decent amount of them :)
Chalkidike will rise again!
Good enough for me. Good luck bug chasing fam!