CK2 Dev Diary #16: Man's inhumanity to man

[Pete0714]

Why is paradox normalizing the use of torture and treating it as not only acceptable but something fun and entertaining?

It is the dark and middle ages, and people were historically cruel in their forms of torture. In this case, it is a DLC, so if you don't want it, don't get it. I personally won't get it at least initially because I don't feel it is immediately needed for my games, but I don't see why others can't have it.

 

[Sindai]

• Bad poetry. Rulers with the Poet trait may deploy their very worst poems against a prisoner. While a comparatively mild punishment, it nonetheless has a slight chance to drive them mad.

I am very disappointed...that the odds of insanity are low! If we have fantasy stuff enabled please make it much more likely to cause insanity.

 

[Pete0714]

31 (!!) execution methods? Wow! xD

CK2: The Baskin and Robins of executions!

 

[Pete0714]

The outcome will be random.

Boo! Taking away player choice!!!!

 

[Wagonlitz]

Since house arrest was brought up, I have a question. Can a prisoner under house arrest produce children? I've sometimes had to imprison a family member but still want them to produce heirs.

Now we just need to be able to decide from the start that it is house arrest instead of having to wait for that event asking whether you want it.

 

[Silversweeeper]

Now we just need to be able to decide from the start that it is house arrest instead of having to wait for that event asking whether you want it.

I believe that you already can use targeted decisions for that since a few patches back.

 

[Jorlem]

I know that was on our list of possible improvements, but I am not certain if it was added or not.

Well, here's hoping it was added.

 

[vandevere]

Boo! Taking away player choice!!!!

Actually, I prefer random. You never know what you'll get for your next...victim...

 

[Wagonlitz]

I believe that you already can use targeted decisions for that since a few patches back.

Must have missed it then.


Also I wonder if you eat your prisoner if you then can have the bones cleaned and sent to the relatives as part of a "present". Kind of like how in the Godfather the Corleones gets Luca Brasis west together with a fish.

 

[Darkrenown]

>It’s all in an easily moddable file too, just in case modders think we have been insufficiently creative.

ARE YOU GRINDING MY JIMMIES? you STOLE this idea from modders. They have done this way before you announced this DLC. Doubt? check it ou then:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=635776529&searchtext=execution
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=503399786&searchtext=execution

You should leave content like this to modders, you should improve game mechanics and such. Why haven't you made a combat overhaul yet? naval combat, no? no of course not. UNBELIEVABLE Paradox, wanting to extract as much money as possible. If mods like HIP or AGOT dont use content added in this DLC, i'm pretty sure most wont buy your bulldefecation. You should be INNOVATING not COPYING.

It's always funny when someone links some mod as proof we stole it. Believe it or not, it's actually possible for multiple people to have similar ideas independently, and torture in the middle ages is hardly a one-off revelation. I note the 2nd mod you link there "steals" our original concepts of blinding and castrating people which were added way back in Legacy of Rome though. Do you suggest that any time we have an idea we should search the mod database and if any mod, no matter how obscure, has done something similar we should scrap the idea?

 

[Darkrenown]

Lovely. All of this is absolutely lovely.

1. Do those elegant, new ways to treat ladies and gentlemens comes as separate buttons next to release, banish/ransom, execute or as right click diplomatic menu options?
2. Are there chances for a way to deal with multiple prisoners in the same way (mass ransom, etc.)?
3. Are there any game mechanics profits from e.g. humiliating/mutilating people other than shortening their lifespan?
4. Do you guys consider making a system for dreadful characters who being totally asymphatetic have a lot of respect because of fear?

1. Right click
2. no
3. Well Humiliating someone lowers their general opinion for a while, but these are mostly done for their own sake.
4. It's an interesting idea, often brought up, but really it would need the whole opinion system to be built around it rather than something to tack on.

Will it be possible to fashion a drinking cup out of my enemies' skulls, for use at feasts?

I think it's possible for Nomads actually!

 

[tywinzo]

It's nice with the extra execution methods. Unfortunately, I agree that it's something modders can spend time on...

Torture is nice, but I wonder how realistic it was (except in fantasy dark middle ages) and for what purpose it can be used? It doesn't sound like a legal punishment, to be tortured. Are those actions considered criminal (banish/imprison reason?).

Bad poetry. While it's funny for 2 minutes, it's the kind of joke & laugh content that prevents immersion by not being serious.

Big plus for making executions different for different cultures.

 

[Franconian]

I so truly need this

 

[Wagonlitz]

Torture is nice, but I wonder how realistic it was (except in fantasy dark middle ages) and for what purpose it can be used? It doesn't sound like a legal punishment, to be tortured. Are those actions considered criminal (banish/imprison reason?).

It most certainly is realistic to have (to the present day human) unimaginably cruel torture devices in game, since those were used historically and aren't just something out of fantasy.
Now of course if you are high enough in society some forms of torture might be seen as beneath you and hence somebody using them on you will make that somebody seen negatively and it might be illegal and hence lead to a feud.
But as punishment of prisoners torture was both very frequently used (if not the default) and very cruel.

An example is execution by elephant. If the ruler was benovelant he might have the elephant end it quickly, but otherwise the elephants were trained well enough that the pain could be drawn out for days. Here is a recording made by Brits of what an old execution elephant remembered despite execution by elephant having been abolished for 35 years by that time. (And if anything it was more cruel and not less in medieval times.)

During the native dynasty it was the practice to train elephants to put criminals to death by trampling upon them, the creatures being taught to prolong the agony of the wretched sufferers by crushing the limbs, avoiding the vital parts. With the last tyrant king of Candy, this was a favourite mode of execution and as one of the elephant executioners was at the former capital during our sojourn there we were particularly anxious to test the creature's sagacity and memory. The animal was mottled and of enormous size, and was quietly standing there with his keeper seated upon his neck; the noble who accompanied us desired the man to dismount and stand on one side.

The chief then gave the word of command, ordering the creature to 'slay the wretch!' The elephant raised his trunk, and twined it, as if around a human being; the creature then made motions as if he were depositing the man on the earth before him, then slowly raised his back-foot, placing it alternately upon the spots where the limbs of the sufferer would have been. This he continued to do for some minutes; then, as if satisfied that the bones must be crushed, the elephant raised his trunk high upon his head and stood motionless; the chief then ordered him to 'complete his work,' and the creature immediately placed one foot, as if upon the man's abdomen, and the other upon his head, apparently using his entire strength to crush and terminate the wretch's misery.

Area where this execution method was used. Though the byzzies used it too.

Spoiler

Aside from that then the torture department e.g. includes a barrel with loads of spikes inside. An unlucky sod is put in it and it is rolled down a hill. The man will be in horrible pain and bleed to death over a couple days.
There also is the finger crusher where you keep tightening a screw which in turn makes two plates of metal (with spikes on the inside) come closer and closer together. If the man getting this treatment isn't let off the hook prematurely (e.g. for telling you the secrets you want) all the fingers of the hand getting processed with be crushed off. There is a similar contraption where instead of two plates to fingers, you have a flat bottom plate and then a round shell. You place a head in it and then turn the screw until the head cracks and is turned to mush.

There also is the behinds pear which is a pear shaped contraption which you insert into the anus of a prisoner. Then you turn a screw and the pear starts to expand; eventually it will utterly demolish the anus. For women it can (and was) inserted into their vaginas and then used to utterly demolish it. Obviously you didn't stand a good change of surviving having your anus/vagina turned into mush by an expanding metal pear.

And there was a "chair" which actually was a large spike you were put on top of and then had weights bound to your feet. Gravity then slowly impaled you. And there was the wooden horse which is a horizontal plank positioned with the narrow side upwards and then four legs to raise the plank. A prisoner is then positioned on the horse and have weights bound to his feet (hand too possibly; not sure). He will then have his balls crushed slowly.

And that is just what I remember of the top of my head. Others will be able to add more.
And all those were perfectly legal punishments. Though again some of them might not have been considered legal or at least not appropriate for high nobles/nobles. The wooden horse for instance was for peasants and I would be surprised if it didn't have severe repercussions should you be discovered to have given a nobleman a trip on the wooden horse.

 

[Narvait]

Oh my,
all the irrelevant people in my prison,
listen to my lovely rhymes of reason.
For times have come to you,
to listen is what you do.

 

[imperium3]

Since Death is a big theme for The Reaper's Due, we have also added several reactions events to the death of your lovers, friends, and rivals. For the first two, these can result in things like you turning to drink, finding a new friend, taking comfort in the arms of another, or finding a keepsake of them. For the latter, you may miss having a rival and start a new feud, resolve to become a better person, or if you are a particular type of person you might sneak out and desecrate their corpse. We don’t judge!

Do these events also happen for close relatives? (e.g. spouses, children, parents, siblings?)

 

[Wagonlitz]

Oh my,
all the irrelevant people in my prison,
listen to my lovely rhymes of reason.
For times have come to you,
to listen is what you do.

*bites off his leg*

 

[Praetorian44]

Some of these events are really cool! This may be my favorite DD for this expansion so far.

 

[m n]

It's always funny when someone links some mod as proof we stole it. Believe it or not, it's actually possible for multiple people to have similar ideas independently, and torture in the middle ages is hardly a one-off revelation. I note the 2nd mod you link there "steals" our original concepts of blinding and castrating people which were added way back in Legacy of Rome though. Do you suggest that any time we have an idea we should search the mod database and if any mod, no matter how obscure, has done something similar we should scrap the idea?

The problem with this DLC is that it's adding content from modders, that it's free, to the base game as a buying product, this means we are paying for something we already have.

In my opinion the community should open it's voice against this kind of act. The DLC as far as i know will overhaul diseases and death. The disease part i dont have a problem being sold because it's a new (or overhaul of the) mechanic, and that is fine. About the executions i think it should not be sold, but it should be added in the new patch, just like "Agressive Expansion" was added when conclave came out. That being because we already have it in a free form. It does not make sense to put a price tag in something it is already free, and what about the modders? do a work for free and we will sell it to OUR customers? The modding community is HUGE in paradox games, if it was not for them there would be way less sales: CK2 would be cut in half if not for AGOT.

Let me give you some ideas of things you should be doing:

>Combat overhaul. Take this game for example, and implement something like that in CK:http://www.clickjogos.com.br/Jogos-online/Acao-e-Aventura/1066/ (I will do a entire post about how this would/could work in the game, but it will take some time)
>Naval combat, ever thought about this?
>Better diplomacy, CK focuses on people, so why not make interaction with people a more important and fun part of the game? Economy (i think this DLC is going to improve this, but i'll list it anyway): Population, Manpower, food (to feed the population/army when raised), Troops designer (the base would be the current troops types we already have, but now you can customize a division to fit in a certain way of fighting, example: Base: Pikemen, could be changed to: spearman [more attack values at fighting infantry]/Halberdiers [better at fighting HC and SP]/ Pikeman [better at fighting Light Cav and HI]) you should take the best you have from other games and try to assimilate in a way that will benefit the game play of the game in it's own way!
>More in depth life of characters.

Those are some aspects i think the developers should actually worry about. i'll have to get out now, but i will do a post about how these things should/could be IMO.

 

[Wagonlitz]

customize a division to fit in a certain way of fighting, example: Base: Pikemen, could be changed to: spearman [more attack values at fighting infantry]/Halberdiers [better at fighting HC and SP]/ Pikeman [better at fighting Light Cav and HI]) you should take the best you have from other games and try to assimilate in a way that will benefit the game play of the game in it's own way!

I might be mistaken, but I don't think that it was possible to rulers to demand what weapons the levy turned up with---at least not until the very late game when levies were going out of fashion anyway.