CK2 Dev Diary #16: Man's inhumanity to man

[DC123456789]

I wouldn't go so far to say they are doing it to milk us out of cash. The content is actually pretty worth it! It's just poor development choice. The community can't, say, make naval battles possible - only Paradox can, so we are effectively "blocked" from it by a huge wall of hardcode. The community CAN do cool events, portrait sprites, traits, etc. So, why not let the pros make the big magic, and let the community do what they already do?

I would like to know other viewpoints on the matter.

Not everyone (in fact the vast majority of the playerbase IIRC) plays with mods, and it is unreasonable to expect that the game should only be truly complete with mods. Paradox should continue to add in new flavour events and such in order to continue to enhance the player experience of all the vanilla players.

 

[gdj]

How does this new system affect byzantine rulers?

Currently they blind and/or castrate everyone who doesnt ransom his/her way out, nonsensical as it is. Will they do something else now, like bad poetry, or eating some Hauteville-Gyros?

 

[Sounds]

Feels macabre, but I'm looking forward to the reaper.

 

[Gamengervi]

People keep talking about how they want improvements to torture (covered), execution (covered), imprisonment (covered), and banishment, but I sure would appreciate if the Devs at least gave a passing look to the opposite side. The better angels of our nature, if you will.

It would be nice if, when you release/forgive a prisoner, you had small chance to gain some piety or a positive virtue trait (kind and charitable come to mind, or lose cruel, or something). Frequently after a big war I end up with some 30 courtier women and children who I would suffer no penalties for mass-executing and can't ransom, but I like to roleplay and, even though I have nothing to gain for it, I let them go.

Your reward is that you did a good thing. No?

 

[EnvyDemon]

Your reward is that you did a good thing. No?

Your reward is to be beheaded Ned Stark style.

No good dead goes unpunished

 

[TheDungen]

It most certainly is realistic to have (to the present day human) unimaginably cruel torture devices in game, since those were used historically and aren't just something out of fantasy.
Now of course if you are high enough in society some forms of torture might be seen as beneath you and hence somebody using them on you will make that somebody seen negatively and it might be illegal and hence lead to a feud.
But as punishment of prisoners torture was both very frequently used (if not the default) and very cruel.

An example is execution by elephant. If the ruler was benovelant he might have the elephant end it quickly, but otherwise the elephants were trained well enough that the pain could be drawn out for days. Here is a recording made by Brits of what an old execution elephant remembered despite execution by elephant having been abolished for 35 years by that time. (And if anything it was more cruel and not less in medieval times.)


Area where this execution method was used. Though the byzzies used it too.

Spoiler

Aside from that then the torture department e.g. includes a barrel with loads of spikes inside. An unlucky sod is put in it and it is rolled down a hill. The man will be in horrible pain and bleed to death over a couple days.
There also is the finger crusher where you keep tightening a screw which in turn makes two plates of metal (with spikes on the inside) come closer and closer together. If the man getting this treatment isn't let off the hook prematurely (e.g. for telling you the secrets you want) all the fingers of the hand getting processed with be crushed off. There is a similar contraption where instead of two plates to fingers, you have a flat bottom plate and then a round shell. You place a head in it and then turn the screw until the head cracks and is turned to mush.

There also is the behinds pear which is a pear shaped contraption which you insert into the anus of a prisoner. Then you turn a screw and the pear starts to expand; eventually it will utterly demolish the anus. For women it can (and was) inserted into their vaginas and then used to utterly demolish it. Obviously you didn't stand a good change of surviving having your anus/vagina turned into mush by an expanding metal pear.

And there was a "chair" which actually was a large spike you were put on top of and then had weights bound to your feet. Gravity then slowly impaled you. And there was the wooden horse which is a horizontal plank positioned with the narrow side upwards and then four legs to raise the plank. A prisoner is then positioned on the horse and have weights bound to his feet (hand too possibly; not sure). He will then have his balls crushed slowly.

And that is just what I remember of the top of my head. Others will be able to add more.
And all those were perfectly legal punishments. Though again some of them might not have been considered legal or at least not appropriate for high nobles/nobles. The wooden horse for instance was for peasants and I would be surprised if it didn't have severe repercussions should you be discovered to have given a nobleman a trip on the wooden horse.

Actually a lot of the torture devices from the middle ages are later creations, also many accounts of torture at least in Europe is also later fabrications, the problem is it's kind of hard to tell which ones are and which ones aren't but this is again a case of the renaissance trying to seem more enlightened by making the medieval times seem less so.

 

[Me_]

I guess it's too late to hope for any answers, but will we be seeing any new ambitions added to the game in this DLC? It seems to me like a good opportunity to add the following and possibly more:
- drive the plague from the realm or survive the plague;
- punish rival (killing, humiliating etc.);
- avenge X (kill whomever killed your loved one/friend.

 

[Afinati]

Since Death is a big theme for The Reaper's Due, we have also added several reactions events to the death of your lovers, friends, and rivals. For the first two, these can result in things like you turning to drink, finding a new friend, taking comfort in the arms of another, or finding a keepsake of them. For the latter, you may miss having a rival and start a new feud, resolve to become a better person, or if you are a particular type of person you might sneak out and desecrate their corpse. We don’t judge!

Awesomeness.

 

[Me_]

4. It's an interesting idea, often brought up, but really it would need the whole opinion system to be built around it rather than something to tack on.

You could try adding a new system of respect, which could be gained by being just, liked or feared and used it instead of opinion for political decisions (fections, political murder, alliances), but it does indeed seems like a huge concept. Hopefuly CK3 will have something like that.

 

[Thure]

Actually a lot of the torture devices from the middle ages are later creations, also many accounts of torture at least in Europe is also later fabrications, the problem is it's kind of hard to tell which ones are and which ones aren't but this is again a case of the renaissance trying to seem more enlightened by making the medieval times seem less so.

Generally you are right. But execution methods were very well known for the middle ages. You don't often wrote down how exactly you torure your prisoners. But if you do an public execution... it's well known what happened and would be wrote down because it was the punishment. So the sources for execution methods are better than for tortur generally. The Arabs really did crucify during this era. And many other things too.

 

[Kapitalisti]

About the skull trophy, is it possible to collect multiple skulls and build a throne out of them?

 

[EnvyDemon]

About the skull trophy, is it possible to collect multiple skulls and build a throne out of them?

Giving the Iron Throne a run for its money in the "Very uncomfortable, but very badass" department?

 

[TheDungen]

Generally you are right. But execution methods were very well known for the middle ages. You don't often wrote down how exactly you torure your prisoners. But if you do an public execution... it's well known what happened and would be wrote down because it was the punishment. So the sources for execution methods are better than for tortur generally. The Arabs really did crucify during this era. And many other things too.

Well for both executions and torture a good rule of thumb is that if something seems like far to cumbersome (not the word I was really looking for but it'll do) to be real then it probably isn't.

 

[TheDungen]

Giving the Iron Throne a run for its money in the "Very uncomfortable, but very badass" department?

Very fragile?

 

[havenost]

What abour visiting the prisoners' chambers? Impregnating a queen or something?

Yeah I wouldn't mind if I was playing a female character visiting a male prisoner's chamber either if he had good stats, or wasn't ugly.

One of the worst/best things in this game is the portrait system. Though tough to make good looking characters since you always get one or two chubby characters, or a balding one that just ruins your Eugenics simulator.

People keep talking about how they want improvements to torture (covered), execution (covered), imprisonment (covered), and banishment, but I sure would appreciate if the Devs at least gave a passing look to the opposite side. The better angels of our nature, if you will.

It would be nice if, when you release/forgive a prisoner, you had small chance to gain some piety or a positive virtue trait (kind and charitable come to mind, or lose cruel, or something). Frequently after a big war I end up with some 30 courtier women and children who I would suffer no penalties for mass-executing and can't ransom, but I like to roleplay and, even though I have nothing to gain for it, I let them go.

I agree, this. We need better rewards for being kind. Maybe trait that grants increase prestige generation or diplomacy without out a malus. I always capture a bunch of courtiers or other lowly Noble members without any titles and never really get any noticeable reward. Getting +5 piety is hardly anything.

 

[riadach]

4. It's an interesting idea, often brought up, but really it would need the whole opinion system to be built around it rather than something to tack on.

I suggested earlier you could add is as a temporary modifier increasing base reluctance to engage in factions and plots. You could then remove that +25 opinion boost vassals get towards you when you win a faction war.

imprison plotter/faction member: +
Torture plotter/faction member: ++
Executre plotter/faction member: +++

I think it's possible for Nomads actually!

Irish kings used take the skull place it between the thigh and their calf and crush it. Might be nice for flavour.

I hope you can collect skulls of your rivals from battles and duels though.

 

[spinoza013]

Can we construct a Skull Trophy hall?

 

[Abnwtwtud]

This appears as though it will be a fantastic addition to the game, but I sincerely hope that cultural development will be a focus for the next DLC.

 

[BlackPrince]

I found examples of Bad Poetry in West African culture group. Beware! Reading those may lead to uncontollable attack of laughter.

"Me who? Please boo. Landin' in that G2 same color as beef stew, pure blue, hebrew"

"Young, black, and famous, with money hangin out the anus."

"big house, long hallways, got 10 bathrooms I can shit all day"

"Boy I'm sitting on green like piss in the grass"

"Her head is crazy so she's insane."

"I keep it 300, like Romans
300 b*****s, where’s the Trojans?"

"My picture should be in the dictionary
Next to the definition of definition"

Can I choose crucifixion instead, pretty please?

 

[Stuckenschmidt]

Well, since the Devs are now officially out of useful ideas for CK2, maybe we can focus on something new now. Vicky 3 would be a good idea. As un-sandboxy as Vicky 2, but with more fleshed out features.