CK2 Dev Diary# 22: Quarantining the bugs

[Naughtius Maximus]

Disagree, they shouldn't change the effects of turning off the DP just becouse you say so. They did a good job giving us the option to turn off DP and SR, I hope the won't ruin it by disabling cheevos when someone decides to turn those options off.

Should be the same punishment as turning off Mongol invasions or adventurers. Why grant achievements on an easier mode? What kind of achievement is that?

You already have the option to turn it off, but there is no logic to justify granting achievements for doing so. Maybe if people turning it off were an actual majority as several forum people have liked to claim.

 

[Keizer Harm]

Pacts and shattered retreat should disable achievements if turned off.

They are hated by an insignificant minority of players (compared to how much of a "majority" they seemed to claim) and achievements should really feel like achievements.

Like the new plagues letting them turn off that option and miss achievements is already generous enough. There will always be a subset of players whining about making an already easy to blob game easier for themselves, we should really discourage that for balance's sake. It's just not fun being a vassal count while your friend picks some country bumpkin in Finland, and you basically never even have a chance to compete as they get all the EZ mode CBs with nothing keeping them in check.

The difference is that the game got a lot harder, and earlier achievements may no longer be possible under the same circumstances, or they would require far more time. If CK2 had had SR and coalitions from the start I would be fully with you.

 

[Cymsdale]

Pacts and shattered retreat should disable achievements if turned off.

They are hated by an insignificant minority of players (compared to how much of a "majority" they seemed to claim) and achievements should really feel like achievements.

Like the new plagues letting them turn off that option and miss achievements is already generous enough. There will always be a subset of players whining about making an already easy to blob game easier for themselves, we should really discourage that for balance's sake. It's just not fun being a vassal count while your friend picks some country bumpkin in Finland, and you basically never even have a chance to compete as they get all the EZ mode CBs with nothing keeping them in check.

Oh grow up. Other people getting achievements does not affect you.

 

[Mofiros2000]

Should be the same punishment as turning off Mongol invasions or adventurers. Why grant achievements on an easier mode? What kind of achievement is that?

You already have the option to turn it off, but there is no logic to justify granting achievements for doing so. Maybe if people turning it off were an actual majority as several forum people have liked to claim.

I remember that people played this game before the DP and SR was implemented and still got achievements. Do you think they shouldn't get it becouse there wasn't DP or SR in the earlier versions? Don't say it's like Mongol Invasion or adventurers, those two were in the game from the beginning.

 

[Tom013]

Even if we stipulate that we should care so much, I don't know that ping-pong vs shattered retreat is inherently "easy mode" in either direction. Ping-pong can easily hose the player as bad as the AI in certain cases.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

I remember that people played this game before the DP and SR was implemented and still got achievements. Do you think they shouldn't get it becouse there wasn't DP or SR in the earlier versions? Don't say it's like Monnvasion or adventurers, those two were in the game from the beginning.

Why are you saying this when pay for assasins option is right in front of you?

It's there, but you don't get achievements for utilizing it exactly because it made the game ridiculously easy. Just like turning off DP, not that DP was anything more than a speed bump for anyone remotely competent, really.

 

[richvh]

I remember that people played this game before the DP and SR was implemented and still got achievements. Do you think they shouldn't get it becouse there wasn't DP or SR in the earlier versions? Don't say it's like Mongol Invasion or adventurers, those two were in the game from the beginning.

Adventurers were added in The Old Gods... hardly "in the game from the beginning."

 

[Mofiros2000]

Adventurers were added in The Old Gods... hardly "in the game from the beginning."

Sorry my bad, I thought it was always there.

 

[Jorlem]

@Darkrenown

And to me it looks like the removal of unneeded characters is effecting them pretty hard. Had a game as a venetian patrician where I had problems keeping my physician (invited a bunch of holy men to get one) before the game decided to kill him of ("natural death"). Fixed it by marrying them to old women of my dynasty so they become "important".

I'm not surprised. It makes sense that patricians would have trouble with the new removal of unneeded characters function, seeing as how one of their core mechanics literally depends on them having a ton of characters hanging around their court doing nothing. Those dynasty members would fill up the character's court until it hit the limit, forcing the removal mechanic to constantly cull any newly created, "unimportant" characters.

 

[Keizer Harm]

the new removal of unneeded characters function

It is not a new function! It has existed forever, it only is now more rigorous with the new update, starting pruning at a smaller court size.

 

[Jorlem]

It is not a new function! It has existed forever, it only is now more rigorous with the new update, starting pruning at a smaller court size.

Yes, I know. There was the old function, and now there is a different one, which is new.

 

[redsimonDE]

Why are you saying this when pay for assasins option is right in front of you?

It's there, but you don't get achievements for utilizing it exactly because it made the game ridiculously easy. Just like turning off DP, not that DP was anything more than a speed bump for anyone remotely competent, really.

You remind me of that guy who said that Andreas Waldetoft's music for Stellaris was clearly just paid work, uncreative and uninspiring.
That was one thing, the other thing was that he worded things like you did, condescending like "you clearly must see that I'm right, and if not you're uneducated" or, in this case "not even remotely competent as a player".

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

You remind me of that guy who said that Andreas Waldetoft's music for Stellaris was clearly just paid work, uncreative and uninspiring.
That was one thing, the other thing was that he worded things like you did, condescending like "you clearly must see that I'm right, and if not you're uneducated" or, in this case "not even remotely competent as a player".

They're both true. And both unrefuted as of yet.

I'd honestly be surprised if people have issues operating under Defensive Pacts, really. They only affect the player at multi-king and empire and a half sizes. At Smaller and larger sizes DP may as well not exist. Even within that band of realm size it is easy to operate under DP. At most slowing the player blobbing by a century.

I could go into shattered retreat, but even with it turned off people are still complaining and wishing to make the game easier. There's no point catering to these people, they're the type who want awards for participation instead of actual achievement. In getting that feature, stuff like Multiplayer become instantly boring as it becomes a race to see who can blob the fastest. Also very limiting as you cannot just pick anyone you like anymore. Pick wrong and friend/enemy will blob out of control before you even free yourself from vassalage. At least with DP active player blobs get delayed enough for you to provide a competitive response.

 

[Tom013]

I could go into shattered retreat, but even with it turned off people are still complaining and wishing to make the game easier. There's no point catering to these people, they're the type who want awards for participation instead of actual achievement. In getting that feature, stuff like Multiplayer become instantly boring as it becomes a race to see who can blob the fastest. Also very limiting as you cannot just pick anyone you like anymore. Pick wrong and friend/enemy will blob out of control before you even free yourself from vassalage. At least with DP active player blobs get delayed enough for you to provide a competitive response.

The reason you can't go into it, and why people still have problems with shattered retreat off, is because you're simply incorrect -- it does not make it easier. It just makes it different. Different in a way I (personally) find silly, but only different.

Incidentally, achievements aren't awards, and they are for participation -- in a hobby. They're virtual kudos. An itty-bitty nearly irrelevant pat on your back. Huzzah! Best case scenario, they give you something new to go after.

If you think Multiplayer is determined by shattered retreat, you must be delusional. If you think Defensive Pacts determine multiplayer, you're playing rigged games anyway.

And who plays competitive CK2 multiplayer? That has to be a very limited audience, and you can't get achievements, and you can decide on rules as a group of actual literal humans... so... what in the bloody hell are you on about?

 

[alfian]

Please add Despotic and Autocracy government type, especially for Byzantine Empire, Empire of Trebizond, Despotate of Epirus.

 

[Fishman786]

What percentage of people play with achievements enabled? I always play mods, so I've never got any.

 

[Tom013]

What percentage of people play with achievements enabled? I always play mods, so I've never got any.

It's hard to tell, as some of those 30% "other" mods probably disable achievements, and some of the rules do now as well (plus Ironman requirement).

Still, only 11% of CK2 players have gotten the achievement for getting married ... even ignoring a lot of "players" that only bought CK2 and then clicked "play" without doing anything, that has to mean the achievement seeker crowd is not even close to 100%, and likely relatively low.

 

[majesty8]

From the "Saoshyant Descendant" event trigger:

trigger = { OR = { mother = { trait = saoshyant } father = { trait = saoshyant } mother = { trait = saoshyant_descendant } father = { trait = saoshyant_descendant } }

Shouldn't those checks be father_even_if_dead/mother_even_if_dead? A child should be marked as SD even if his SD dad died during the pregnancy.

 

[chrnno]

What percentage of people play with achievements enabled? I always play mods, so I've never got any.

It's hard to tell, as some of those 30% "other" mods probably disable achievements, and some of the rules do now as well (plus Ironman requirement).

Still, only 11% of CK2 players have gotten the achievement for getting married ... even ignoring a lot of "players" that only bought CK2 and then clicked "play" without doing anything, that has to mean the achievement seeker crowd is not even close to 100%, and likely relatively low.

Given the stats posted on mod usage and which ones they do then somewhere between one and two thirds looks fair. It is hard to get better numbers from there since playing vanilla doesn't mean you play ironman, playing with mods doesn't mean they block achievements and it is not like people will ever only play in a single way.

If anything in my understanding for all that people in the forums seem to go to extremes(only play total conversion mods or only ironman I mean) most people do both and everything in between.

 

[Narr666]

Pacts and shattered retreat should disable achievements if turned off.

They are hated by an insignificant minority of players (compared to how much of a "majority" they seemed to claim) and achievements should really feel like achievements.

Like the new plagues letting them turn off that option and miss achievements is already generous enough. There will always be a subset of players whining about making an already easy to blob game easier for themselves, we should really discourage that for balance's sake. It's just not fun being a vassal count while your friend picks some country bumpkin in Finland, and you basically never even have a chance to compete as they get all the EZ mode CBs with nothing keeping them in check.

No, please don´t. Let them have them. The constant raging and complaining was really unnerving, don´t give people a reason to continue this discussion or giving the arguments why the numbers paradox getting (you know, i.e. the 80% letting Defensive Pacts on) are "rigged". See it as political reasoning.

On great archievment was made with the game rules: This unnerving "game is totally broken, don´t do anything until it is fixed, Shattered Retreat destroyed anything, the game is ridiculus now" discussion is finally over. Let us get relieve, breath the fresh air of discussiing the game without people constantly stumbling in and complaining.

Let them have the archievment, let them have the things they want and play as they want, while the Conclave-, and/or DP and SR lovers like me can have it their way.

I find it liberating. Finally there is peace.