CK2 Dev Diary #31: Back to work

[BrokenSky]

I really like the way CK2+ deals with culture conversion tbh.

 

[dacowftw]

love it!

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Unfortunately, even with all options enabled many cultures still vanish at alarming speeds, to say nothing of the total genocide

There is no genocide, but it shows how you and some others think about culture in game.
It's only effectively a modifier for potential revolts and a small opnion malus towards a new ruler (culture) in game and nothing else.
Culture is not people. Nobody gets killed.

It's basicaly just a tool for unrest and the mean time troubles until a new ruler culture gets accepted sufficiently.
All the fuss about culture as in game seems to me like quite a bit a misunderstanding and/or nationalistic nonsense.
We have discussed this over and over, but opinions stay split.

Anway, i don't see how "even with all options enabled" as

Combination - Melting Pot cultures will appear at an increased rate, spread is also restricted AND base Culture Conversion chance is reduced.

"many cultures still vanish at alarming speeds".

Sorry, but that's very exaggerated (aka hyperbole)...if you understand culture in game as level of acceptance of ruler culture,
but you probably do not share that interpretation.

PS:

I suppose the only solution for people who complain about it would be to disable it
and thus add a new Game Rule.

I have no idea how it works in CK2Plus.

 

[Tavior]

What makes you think that the requirements will stay the same? You think there's still a significant amount of people with what in 2012 were low end systems?

Now it's true that the larger the map the more taxing and adding China might not be feasible even in CKIII, but I'd be quite surprised if the requirements remain the same as for CKII, since that'd mean PI thought that people had the same computers as in 2012.
Also the engine has improved quite a lot; remember CKII runs on Clausewitz 2 which EU4 for instance runs on Clausewitz 4 and Stellaris on an even further advanced engine version. Presumably using a never engine version will give something. Also IIRC it's still not too multithreaded due to the way things are made, so if they manage to multithread more than today there should be improvements too.

No you completely misunderstood what I meant.

When I said CPU requirement will stay the same because the same operation (NPC deciding to k̶i̶l̶l plot against you etc...) is still one operation regardless of the engine used to run the game itself. Same for pathfinder and other operation you would absolute need to make a world like this.

The other option is to drastic raise the CPU/GPU requirement to allow China/America/Asia etc... to be put in. But that would not allow people with lower end game to run them as well. I presume that since CK2 requirement were quite low when it first came out to reach a wider audience. Rather than cater to a narrow elite group with hardware only a few can afford.

 

[Tavior]

Then you keep all your vassals Norse. The province culture would eventually shift anyway if you made your vassals German, and that would happen regardless of using this councillor job. You can't stop province culture shifting without changing the game rules.

What I meant is that I might want to have multi-culture vassal empire and don't try to culture shift anything at all.

Or converse do wacky culture shift like giving Roma Norse culture which allow Pope to go on viking-isque raiding or even have more stronger support for female rights (Basque culture used to have this but not anymore since gender law has been added shame).

Having one "super bloc of same-ness culture" ruin some of the possible fun you can have with a multi-culture empire.

 

[Karlingid]

So, what do you guys have to say about Ares' Own?

Spoiler

For those unaware, in the files of the game, amidst the various crusader-style traits like Valhalla-bound, there is one programmed in for Hellenic (but not generic Pagan) called Ares' Own that includes its own icon of a Spartan helmet and is fully functional. Some on Reddit have reported that it shows up in some randomly spawned immortals, whilst others state that a broad rule of game design is to never add something if you don't plan to do something with it later.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKi..._players_that_want/+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[clockworkBabbag]

What I meant is that I might want to have multi-culture vassal empire and don't try to culture shift anything at all.

Or converse do wacky culture shift like giving Roma Norse culture which allow Pope to go on viking-isque raiding or even have more stronger support for female rights (Basque culture used to have this but not anymore since gender law has been added shame).

Having one "super bloc of same-ness culture" ruin some of the possible fun you can have with a multi-culture empire.

So... have your multi-cultural vassal empires.

The new job won't affect any of that.

 

[Tavior]

So... have your multi-cultural vassal empires.

The new job won't affect any of that.

Except the way job description is phrased suggest otherwise.

This job increases the speed of Cultural conversion in your realm’s provinces

Suggest that it will culture convert everything within your vassal/demesne etc... As opposite to limited to only your own Demesne.

I would not be surprised if it indirectly "encourage", for lack of better word, all of your vassal to eventually culture shift of their own violate or even culture-wise die off.

 

[BlackPrince]

Glitterhoof! There are people who hate my peaceful military actions. Patatay to them and make them love me!

 

[Fishman786]

There is no genocide, but it shows how you and some others think about culture in game.
It's only effectively a modifier for potential revolts and a small opnion malus towards a new ruler (culture) in game and nothing else.
Culture is not people. Nobody gets killed.

It's basicaly just a tool for unrest and the mean time troubles until a new ruler culture gets accepted sufficiently.
All the fuss about culture as in game seems to me like quite a bit a misunderstanding and/or nationalistic nonsense.
We have discussed this over and over, but opinions stay split.

Anway, i don't see how "even with all options enabled" as

"many cultures still vanish at alarming speeds".

Sorry, but that's very exaggerated (aka hyperbole)...if you understand culture in game as level of acceptance of ruler culture,
but you probably do not share that interpretation.

PS:

I suppose the only solution for people who complain about it would be to disable it
and thus add a new Game Rule.

I have no idea how it works in CK2Plus.

Alternative explanations of what culture represents might appear to be a way to justify the rapid conversion rate, but I don't think those explanations add up. Province culture = the culture of the people in the province, nothing else is ever implied in the game. Every single culture conversion event talks about peasants, about languages, about sending in settlers. Nothing about the culture of the nobility or how 'accepted' they are. And when you convert to EUIV (which is where this becomes a real problem) all the vanished cultures are still vanished.


The MTTH for culture conversion is way too high as is, having AI stewards everywhere going about converting provinces will speed it up immensely. Culture conversion should be, at the base level, more of a 1000-year event rather than a 100-year or 300-year one. There are thousands of provinces on the map, even with a MTTH of a millennium it will still happen. Sometimes that's even a bit too fast. My mod for this uses 1000 years as the base MTTH IIRC, with the base Vanilla conversion rates corresponding to absolute best-case scenarios. But modding culture conversion rates is a difficult job since balancing them requires a lot of testing.

EDIT:
Even with full conversion restriction, conversion rates are very quick.
- Cultural assimilation (the spread of culture to neighbouring provinces of the right religion) has a MTTH of 300 years under base conditions and about 53 at absolute optimum. Since this is a per-province event, every right-religion cultural border province ruled by foreigners is being checked separately, and once a province switches culture it will start the dice rolling for all of its neighbours too. Religions change quickly (the kind of need to for gameplay purposes) and once religious conversion has happened this event sweeps across the world.

- Settlement (spread of culture and religion to non-adjacent provinces) has the same base and optimal MTTH rates, but it can only happen in capitals and the game rules restrict it from happening to non-coastal provinces. This means that it isn't a massive influence directly, but it does help speed up the domino effect.

- Crown focus cultural conversion is extremely quick, with a 40 year MTTH (de-facto 80 for the AI due to the ai_will_do weighting) even under base conditions, and it is not affected at all by game rules or by religion. It does need two Prosperity though. There's only one crown focus per character and only powerful rulers get one, which limits the frequency of these events, but again they allow cultural assimilation to easily get a foot in the door, especially in big realms with large vassals (like the Abbasids).

Whilst obviously the game rules do slow things down a bit, if you play from 769 to 1453 it is completely unsurprising that most smaller cultures have vanished or been reduced to tiny enclaves.

 

[TheDungen]

But I should notice that Sunset Invasion Scenario is complete fiction "what if Aztec become the equivalent of European Colonization Invader?".

Well the most fantastic isn't an american empire crossing the ocean, that could have happened (Still incredibly unlikely though) the most fantastic thing is that it's the aztecs crossing the ocean centuries before the aztec empire existed. The events also mentions the Inca who again aren't yet around at that point. There were earlier advanced empires in meso and south america they would have come across as at least slightly less ridicilous if they had been the ones used.

Then use the Game Rule available to restrict cultural conversion chance as you prefer:
http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Game_rules#Culture_Conversion

The option in the council is just that, an option..and DLC specific.
With the correct game rule that should be fine to handle for you, ...........assuming the game rule works.

Even the combined rule have the games cultural diversity dropping like flies aroudn a zapper. I really don't get why there's cultural conversion at all in the game, it's a totally anachronistic idea.

 

[luanmameili]

Steward - Administer Realm. This job increases the speed of Cultural conversion in your realm’s provinces, and can fire events adding economic bonuses to any province.

To any province...Does it mean it will bonus to all provinces in the realm, or just a random province?

 

[Fishman786]

Well the most fantastic isn't an american empire crossing the ocean, that could have happened (Still incredibly unlikely though) the most fantastic thing is that it's the aztecs crossing the ocean centuries before the aztec empire existed. The events also mentions the Inca who again aren't yet around at that point. There were earlier advanced empires in meso and south america they would have come across as at least slightly less ridicilous if they had been the ones used.


Even the combined rule have the games cultural diversity dropping like flies aroudn a zapper. I really don't get why there's cultural conversion at all in the game, it's a totally anachronistic idea.

It's not totally anachronistic, the Norse, Magyar and Turkic migrations happened during this period, and obviously you have the game's cultural melting pots. There was also Anglicisation in Wales and southwest England, Swedish, Danish and German movement around the Baltic and the gradual reduction of the influence of Finno-Ugric tribes in Russia. And there were a lot of cultural shifts that aren't represented in the game at all because they happen within a culture, usually associated with major religious changes such as the spread of Islam in Persia and India.

What *is* totally anachronistic is that you can reliably use culture conversion events to turn your realm into a monocultural unitary nation-state. It's not that nobody tried this in the middle ages, there were attempts at settlement and forced relocation (the Byzantines for instance forcibly resettled the Greek Slavs into Anatolia). But successfully destroying minorities completely was very rare.

 

[animatrix37]

Will there be a diplomatic option to become a tributary/ make a tributary instead of just war in the new update?

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Well, this all looks pretty good. I feel like I should say more (let's be honest, I usually do) but I don't really have a lot of comment to offer, other than "good ideas".

Looks like this DLC may be about realm management.

If that's the case I do have one suggestion - consider a law that restricts title creation, partially for Late Feudal and fully for Imperial Admin.

Oh - and if it matter my vote is for retinues to be integrated into the base game, for them to be made larger, and for them to be able to join revolts in some circumstances.

 

[Fishman786]

Will there be a diplomatic option to become a tributary/ make a tributary instead of just war in the new update?

Something along these lines that I'd like to see is an ultimatum function like in EUIV. For some CBs it should be possible to send an ultimatum so you can do things like acquire tributaries or provinces without actual violence, provided that you massively outweigh the other side.

 

[TheDungen]

It's not totally anachronistic, the Norse, Magyar and Turkic migrations happened during this period, and obviously you have the game's cultural melting pots. There was also Anglicisation in Wales and southwest England, Swedish, Danish and German movement around the Baltic and the gradual reduction of the influence of Finno-Ugric tribes in Russia. And there were a lot of cultural shifts that aren't represented in the game at all because they happen within a culture, usually associated with major religious changes such as the spread of Islam in Persia and India.

What *is* totally anachronistic is that you can reliably use culture conversion events to turn your realm into a monocultural unitary nation-state. It's not that nobody tried this in the middle ages, there were attempts at settlement and forced relocation (the Byzantines for instance forcibly resettled the Greek Slavs into Anatolia). But successfully destroying minorities completely was very rare.

But even the anglified welsh were english speaking welshmen, not english. And that's the thing if the byzantine empire takes egypt it will not make the people there greek like the people in greece the pressure applied will result in something new, something different.

 

[Duuk]

This update and xpac appears better than sex with a trained professional. Cannot wait.

 

[Fishman786]

But even the anglified welsh were english speaking welshmen, not english.

That's true in Wales proper, but in Cumbria/Rheged and in the southwest the Welsh/Britons were fully Anglicised.

And that's the thing if the byzantine empire takes egypt it will not make the people there greek like the people in greece the pressure applied will result in something new, something different.

Yeah I'd like to see a cultural system that's more advanced and allows this kind of divergence.

 

[Jackwagon]

Can you put a commander list in the military tab