CK2 Dev Diary #31: Back to work

[illathid]

And if that could be made moddable, that would be amazing. Imagine having two governments in the feudal group, both locked to elective, but one values the martial stat and personal combat skill, while the other prefers high learning and piety. It would feel very different playing them, even though almost all the mechanics would be identical.

As long as we're talking elective, what about an elective where only people with a minor title can vote? I want my golden bull style succession system.

 

[General Karthos]

I've answered this point already.

So what... do you want NO culture conversion?

I already do, and it doesn't make much difference. That's RNG for you. No matter what the MTTH is, with RNG, events tend to fire sooner rather than later, and that in itself makes it a poor way to deal with provincial culture conversion. I'll be disappointed with the devs if they don't address the fact that the game actively encourages unrealistic, zero-effort cultural map painting before they call it a day and move on to CK3.

Ideally, there should be a new system to deal with provincial culture conversion, but at the very least, what the steward job should do is make culture conversion possible at all, not make it happen even faster. It isn't something that should happen spontaneously with no effort on your part.

With as many people concerned about this as there currently are, there should be a mod to remove culture conversion entirely. Would that work? Or do you need a perfect simulation of the way cultures actually shift or change in the real world (which actually happens pretty fast), because unless you build that mod yourself, I doubt that Paradox is going to implement it at this point.

Look, in a perfect world, adjacent cultures would meld somewhat, like Tex Mex. I mean, Burritos are an American invention, but there's no mexican restaurant here or in Mexico that doesn't serve burritos. Nachos were an invention by a woman who had a lot of leftover tortilla pieces and cheese and decided to feed it to clueless gringos who had been searching for Pancho Villa.

Anyway, look at New Mexico, Texas, etc. There's a fair amount of Mexican culture there, but it is distinctly a minority when compared to the American culture. Especially considering how racist the laws are, particularly in Texas and Arizona. (Especially Arizona.)

 

[DukeLeto42]

Marshal - Does anyone use "Suppress Revolts"? It feels underpowered compared to the other two.

It would be convenient to be either more powerfully scaled on each province, or focused on one province with a small impact globally.

Overall, I find it very useful if I'm still a weak realm and cannot afford a major rebellion (say, if a duchy or small kingdom stretched thin has a heresy appearance, or if my horde is just starting to expand and I'm burning down holdings, and really can't afford to fight their rebels popping up.

 

[General Karthos]

Proclaim the pope is an heretic and start hunting him?

Actually, we should have an event that lets a lunatic ruler with the Hunting focus invite 12 random people (most like your courtiers or courtiers of your vassals, but maybe you'll get lucky and get a troublesome vassal) to his secluded castle and hunt them.

 

[General Karthos]

Overall, I find it very useful if I'm still a weak realm and cannot afford a major rebellion (say, if a duchy or small kingdom stretched thin has a heresy appearance, or if my horde is just starting to expand and I'm burning down holdings, and really can't afford to fight their rebels popping up.

This! When I'm just starting out from a one county independent seeking to rule over all of Britannia, HIspania, or wherever, and I just CANNOT afford religious revolts every other week, the suppress revolts with a reasonably competent marshal I have bribed to coming to my backwards court is worth its (figurative) weight in (figurative) gold. You need a solid base of six or seven provinces before a revolt in one of them is easily survivable, and that can be difficult to manage.

After that point, I only use suppress revolt if its my capital province (or in later centuries, the other provinces that will forever be in my demesne) in danger of revolt, since they're so well-developed that eight or nine thousand troops can spawn there.

 

[TheDungen]

Just FYI, for the benefit of you and others who complain about this, you can slow down culture conversion to what... 25% of what it is right now, and make it harder for cultures to convert (limit the conditions under which it can convert at all).

We are aware and I think we all play with that on, but with so many diffrent events that can change culture it's crazy fast even with that.

So what... do you want NO culture conversion?



With as many people concerned about this as there currently are, there should be a mod to remove culture conversion entirely. Would that work? Or do you need a perfect simulation of the way cultures actually shift or change in the real world (which actually happens pretty fast), because unless you build that mod yourself, I doubt that Paradox is going to implement it at this point.

Look, in a perfect world, adjacent cultures would meld somewhat, like Tex Mex. I mean, Burritos are an American invention, but there's no mexican restaurant here or in Mexico that doesn't serve burritos. Nachos were an invention by a woman who had a lot of leftover tortilla pieces and cheese and decided to feed it to clueless gringos who had been searching for Pancho Villa.

Anyway, look at New Mexico, Texas, etc. There's a fair amount of Mexican culture there, but it is distinctly a minority when compared to the American culture. Especially considering how racist the laws are, particularly in Texas and Arizona. (Especially Arizona.)

As long as culture is monolithic rather than a percentage breakdown yes I want no culture conversion (outside of melting pots) to be an option. And that better prevent all the events because there are as of now events that are not affected by the slower culture conversions rule at all (the prosperity event for an example).
And no culture conversion in reality does not happen pretty fast, in reality the english still haven't managed to stomp out welsh culture completly, in game even with slower culture conversions, it takes like 50 years. Same thing with Breton, Dutch and so on. Europe is filled with minority cultures in reality, the harder they are pushed the harder they resist. But in game it's just stripped away with no rhyme, reason, or believable progression. You have random provinces becoming bedouin in central persia or in andalusia.

 

[Darkrenown]

This is really great, I love it! By the way, is there a chance that we'd see the "reasoning" of electors in elective kinds of succession laws? Even without adding features to it (like integrating with Favours, Foci, and other actions and events) just knowing why someone's voting for A and not voting for our designated B could go a long way to make elective more interesting and strategic, as we'd know who's close to being bribed or otherwise convinced, and who needs to be *disposed of*

Not in this update. Ever? I would need to look into how it's actually done to see if it'd be feasible to show/interact with more. I like the idea though.

Has spending some time there inspired anything?

Nothing major, a few more QoL ideas came out of just chatting with people about the features though.

 

[TheDungen]

This is really great, I love it! By the way, is there a chance that we'd see the "reasoning" of electors in elective kinds of succession laws? Even without adding features to it (like integrating with Favours, Foci, and other actions and events) just knowing why someone's voting for A and not voting for our designated B could go a long way to make elective more interesting and strategic, as we'd know who's close to being bribed or otherwise convinced, and who needs to be *disposed of*

I especially like the idea of spending favours to get someone to vote like you for a set amount of time.

 

[Lysistrata]

Or do you need a perfect simulation of the way cultures actually shift or change in the real world

I'm tired of this silly line. It happens every time I suggest the game is less than perfect, I get some equivalent of "you're just being a perfectionist". No, I'm not. I just want a system for provincial culture conversion that incorporates tolerance (and therefore gives you some choice over whether provinces of a certain culture convert to yours or not, rather than give you a culturally monolithic empire whether you want it or not) and doesn't result in cultures that are still around today routinely going extinct within a century, while Italy routinely stays Lombard forever, for example.

Wanting culture conversion mechanics with somewhat believable outcomes isn't perfectionism. It's expecting the devs to get a pretty important mechanic at least vaguely right. They haven't touched province culture conversion since release. I don't know why people like you are so determined to justify inaction on their part. No good can come of it.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

*sigh*

 

[Jorlem]

I've been meaning for the last few days to put down my thoughts on the job changes, so here they are.

Chancellor - Perform Statecraft. This job increases the speed at which your Threat decays, and can fire events which improve relations with random vassals, neighbours, or your liege if you have one. If you have a specific character you want better relations with, the Improve Diplomatic Relations job will be more useful, but for general improvements Statecraft should be your choice.

Personally, I feel that Threat has already been nerfed to the point of near-meaninglessness, and don't see the need to nerf it any further. Beyond that, it depends on the amount the events improve relations, and if there's a cap, relative to the old job.

Marshal - Organize the Army. This job lowers the upkeep cost of your Retinue (Or Horde), and can fire events to train existing or find new commanders.

Honestly, I can't see myself ever using this job. By the time one is powerful enough to have a retinue, one can usually pay for it, and if you need to be using this job constantly to support your retinue, you shouldn't have one that size in the first place. Compared to the "train troops" job, which also needs to be constantly on and also provides troops, this job is decidedly inferior. The levy troops are almost always going to be more than what little extra this job might let you afford (and technically, it doesn't give you more than you could have before, as it just lowers the price, not raise the retinue cap), making it better for suppressing factions, and you only need to pay for levy troops when they are raised, so this job looses out there too. The other parts I can only see as useful if you have some degree of control over the traits gained, or if the button for spawning new commanders is being removed.

Steward - Administer Realm. This job increases the speed of Cultural conversion in your realm’s provinces, and can fire events adding economic bonuses to any province. If you own Reaper’s Due, Prosperity throughout the Realm will also increase faster.

With this, everything depends on the size of the bonuses, and how that compares to the assured income boost from collecting taxes. Unless they are very good, I can't see them beating out the collect taxes job, save in very small realms where you directly own all or almost all of the provinces, and can be sure that you'll be getting the bonus, not your vassal. Add in the massive detriment that is faster culture conversions, and I can't see myself ever using this job unless I'm the ruler of a tiny realm where I hold everything, and everything is already the same culture. I'm probably going to mod the game to bar the AI from using this job as well, thanks to the culture conversion bit, or I'll just mod that part out.

Spymaster - Sabotage. This is the exception I mentioned earlier. For owners of the <Mystery> expansion, the existing Scheme job will become “off-map” (if you don’t own it, Scheme will remain unchanged) and a new Sabotage job will be available for use on specific provinces. These provinces will suffer damage, gain unrest, and may even be made easier to siege due to sabotage and bribery

This I like. It sounds like this is everything that the Sow Dissent job always wished it was, but wasn't. My only worry here is the six month cooldown between being able to move councilors who are doing jobs in a province. I can see situations where the spymaster gets left behind simply because he's locked in place after the sieges in that province are done. It will also be easy to forget him and leave him behind, as he can only be moved once every six months.

Court Chaplain - Hunt Heretics. This job enables the Court Chaplain to hunt for members of shadowy cabals who plot against God and man alike.

I can't really say much about this without more info on the new heresy mechanics. Beyond that, though, I'm hoping this will replace the event where the court chaplain accuses someone of heresy while proselytizing.


Also, I'm hoping that along with the fleshing out of heresies, some of the less detailed religions get some details. I'm specifically thinking of the Monophysite and Miaphysites, who are currently basically clones of Orthodox with different holy sites and patriarch locations.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Not in this update. Ever? I would need to look into how it's actually done to see if it'd be feasible to show/interact with more. I like the idea though.



Nothing major, a few more QoL ideas came out of just chatting with people about the features though.

Speaking of quality of life -

It seems to me that a lot of people are not especially enthused by the idea of the Steward speeding up culture conversion. On the other hand, you know what I would quite like? Faster De Jure integration. Right now it take 100 years to integrate a province, it might be nice if the Steward could halve that whilst "managing" the Realm, or even reduce it by a third.

I've got to the point where I spend a lot of time "organising" my realm, including influencing De Jure shift to reduce the number of King-tier titles under my Emperor.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Faster De Jure integration. Right now it take 100 years to integrate a province, it might be nice if the Steward could halve that whilst "managing" the Realm, or even reduce it by a third.

Why don't you just use the appropriate Game Rule ?
Because of achievements ?

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Why don't you just use the appropriate Game Rule ?
Because of achievements ?

Well, I am, currently - and I already have all the achievements I really care about.

The point was that "Administering" a realm should probably integrate annexed territory, as opposed to just making everyone speak French.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Well, I am, currently - and I already have all the achievements I really care about.

The point was that "Administering" a realm should probably integrate annexed territory, as opposed to just making everyone speak French.

I was talking about Game Rules for dejure assimilation duration.

Apart from that, de-jure is not about "integrating" territory, whatever you refer to with that.
The steward sure should have nothing to do with that.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

I was talking about Game Rules for dejure assimilation duration.

Apart from that, de-jure is not about "integrating" territory, whatever you refer to with that.
The steward sure should have nothing to do with that.

Yes, I know what you meant, like I said I'm using that rule right now, just to see what will happen. My point, though, was that it makes more sense for the Steward to integrate annexed land into your realm (i.e. make it De Jure).

You may not be aware of this but De Jure vassals provide more troops to the liege, in addition to being less likely to revolt, being able to vote in elections and always being subject to your Crown Laws on inheritance and inter-vassal warfare.

That's quite a big deal - and it's ALL about integration, much more than the culture of your vassals is.

 

[General Karthos]

I'm tired of this silly line. It happens every time I suggest the game is less than perfect, I get some equivalent of "you're just being a perfectionist". No, I'm not. I just want a system for provincial culture conversion that incorporates tolerance (and therefore gives you some choice over whether provinces of a certain culture convert to yours or not, rather than give you a culturally monolithic empire whether you want it or not) and doesn't result in cultures that are still around today routinely going extinct within a century, while Italy routinely stays Lombard forever, for example.

Wanting culture conversion mechanics with somewhat believable outcomes isn't perfectionism. It's expecting the devs to get a pretty important mechanic at least vaguely right. They haven't touched province culture conversion since release. I don't know why people like you are so determined to justify inaction on their part. No good can come of it.

I get your concerns, but I don't think you're getting why I'm NOT concerned. This is almost certainly a mechanic most people don't even notice. I'd imagine a lot of people (maybe not on this forum, but outside this forum, which is what... 95% of the playing population?) don't even know there's a culture map mode. You do have the option of appointing local people of the appropriate nationality to rule the duchies or Kingdoms as appropriate, but of course, that's only if you're the one painting the map.

I doubt the devs are going to touch this one for CK2, because it would require a lot of effort for a payoff most people wouldn't even notice. But maybe they'll hear you for CK3.

 

[klopkr]

Nothing major, a few more QoL ideas came out of just chatting with people about the features though.

That's still nice to hear. Too bad we wont see any Maltan specific event chains of strange Norsemen taking over the beaches.

 

[NewbieOne]

Chancellor - Perform Statecraft. This job increases the speed at which your Threat decays, and can fire events which improve relations with random vassals, neighbours, or your liege if you have one.

Very useful after the opinion nerf and with Conclave faction pressure to increase Council Authority. There are some situations in which you can't really get those opinions up for a long time without giving up your powers in favour of the Council, starting from the +2 demesne from disabling the Council altogether. Even if you have War Committee and Councillors are prevented from joining factions as long as your council is not Discontent, you can sometimes still face some pressure as in nothing you couldn't defeat but you generally have better things to do. Should also make it easier to survive Discontent Councils on succession or just simply put capable individuals on the Council and get away with it more assuredly.

Marshal - Organize the Army. This job lowers the upkeep cost of your Retinue (Or Horde), and can fire events to train existing or find new commanders.

Those from the War focus, right? I'm finding it extremely enjoyable right now. It's probably the most interesting focus to have right now because of the games and the stuff with commanders.

Steward - Administer Realm. This job increases the speed of Cultural conversion in your realm’s provinces,

A bit afraid of that for states that were historically unconverted for a long time or formed melting pots. This could result in a French Catholic k_Jerusalem, Arabic/Berber Spain, German Italy or German Bohemia (already a lot of these two!) or Norman England and stuff like that.

and can fire events adding economic bonuses to any province.

Those from the Booming (Prosperity III) list or different ones?

If you own Reaper’s Due, Prosperity throughout the Realm will also increase faster.

Good stuff. Will it matter whether you're at peace or not? (Thinking along the See Realm Prosper ambition lines.)

Spymaster - Sabotage. This is the exception I mentioned earlier. For owners of the <Mystery> expansion, the existing Scheme job will become “off-map” (if you don’t own it, Scheme will remain unchanged) and a new Sabotage job will be available for use on specific provinces. These provinces will suffer damage, gain unrest, and may even be made easier to siege due to sabotage and bribery.

How about combining Chancellor and Spymaster missions, as in giving synergies (if only %%) when both are trying to pull off a stunt in the same province? The Spymaster kinda strikes me as just about the right research assistant when you need to find materials to justify a claim, for example.

 

[robomax]

will Tribes get an overhaul in this DLC? Ancestral Tribal Tradition? The Focus of Tribe from game start will be your Tribal Ancestry it also base on your education and the Elective succession Vassels will vote for the Son that has the Traditional Education . Example you pick Diplomacy from the start. You have 2 Sons one is a Tough Solder the Other with lo skill and the lowest education in Diplo Your vassals will choose the Tribal Tradition. If Both have the same they will choose the one they like best. It will end the nonsense of vassals picking the Retard Son. So Besides new Jobs the Leader and the Tribe our involved. It kinda goes with This Expanding the Roles of the 5 Jobs. Based on the Education types. When you Go Feudal the Tribal Tradition is lost.

This is much Needed though Tribes will be able to expanded and settle new lands faster?