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CK2 Dev Diary #51: The Roof of the World

Hi folks!

PDXCON 2017 is over and it was fantastic to meet so many of you! I got a lot of interesting suggestions and feedback on our games, including, of course, CK2. So, a special thank you goes out to those of you who were there!

Now then, let’s talk a bit about those ugly gray areas on the map; the wastelands. Aesthetically, I’ve never liked the gray color of wasteland provinces in the non-Terrain map modes, so I took some time to change it so that wasteland is now always shown as Terrain, regardless of map mode (we might add options for this in the settings. Let me know what you think!)

Northern Siberia and the Sahara deserve to be wasteland; it’s difficult to do anything more about that (we’ve already twisted and manipulated the map projection, etc.) However, the Himalayas and the vast Tibetan plateau are a different story… Though mountainous, the region contains many important population centers and religious sites and has a rich history of interaction with China, India and Central Asia. In essence, the only reason it’s a “wasteland” in CK2 is that we haven’t prioritized doing it justice.

tibet_full.png

Tibet, 1066. Note that any green Coat of Arms are placeholders.


I’ve never been happy with the way the eastern edge of the map feels like the edge of the world when, in fact, it should be a dynamic hub connecting at least four major civilizations (China, India, the Steppe Nomads and the Islamic world.) Well, the time to do something about that is now! In our working build, we have added the necessary provinces, new cultures (Bodpa, Tangut and Nepalese), new religions (Bön and Khurmazta), and title history for the entire region.

himalaya.png

The Himalayan mountains, 867.

The Bön religion is a pagan faith which functionally has many similarities with the Romuvan and Buddhist religions: It is very hard to convert, has access to Gavelkind, and unlike other pagan faiths it can not be reformed (though this might change in the future.) Instead, it starts off with the ability to designate heirs, just like Buddhists. It has also got a Patron Deity system like that of the Hindus and the “defensive” Pagans.

bon.png

Purang, one of the Bön religion's Holy Sites.


In addition, we are looking over the great Muslim conquerors (Sabuktigin, Seljuq and Timur) to make sure they usually rise, toning down the Indian Holy Orders and making them creatable (rather than existing from the start.) We also plan to add or expand on adventurers for more generic conquests into and out of the subcontinent especially.

There is more, but that would be revealing too much too soon. :) Stay tuned for the next dev diary!

EDIT: Todays livestreams are cancelled due to attrition from PDXCON.
 
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Awesome... 5 years of development on Crusader Kings II concludes with no attention given to the Crusades.

It's almost as though the thing that's mentioned in the title of the game was covered in some detail in the basic game, or something.

nd
 
It's almost as though the thing that's mentioned in the title of the game was covered in some detail in the basic game, or something.

nd

Crusades feel incredibly unpolished right now.

They are basically random kingdom wide cbs that get randomly called and you get a trait for attending.

Invasion cbs have more nuance then crusades.

Also everyone now has their own version of a crusade.

K_jerusalem can't dejure drift as a work around to stop the kingdom from ending up all over the place while Muslims control it
 
Can we please eventually see Manicheanism be moved into it's own "Gnostic" religion group, possibly along with Yazidi as a separate branch? It just seems so jarring that nearly every game in the earlier startdates (769 especially), Manicheanism becomes the new Orthodoxy of Zoroastrianism. At least making Manicheanism a separate branch (ala Orthodoix vs. Catholic) of the Mazdan group would solve this problem.
 
There were actually not just 1, but 3 jiedushi who should be on the map.

Hexi (河西)
Although Hexi was supposed to be in the Hexi Corridor, the successful Tibetan offensive drove the Tang military northwards, and by 769 the control was conveniently reduced to Shazhou (Dunhuang) and Guazhou (Anxi). The Jiedushi then was Zhou Ding (周鼎).

Beiting (北庭)
The seat of the Jiedushi of Beiting was in Beshbalik (庭州 Tingzhou), and controls Turpan (西州 Xizhou) and Kumul (伊州 Yizhou). The jiedushi (though the office was actually 都護 duhu at that time) in 769 was Cao Lingzhong (曹令忠), later awarded the imperial surname of Li and became Li Yuanzhong (李元忠). Additionally, according to the internet, he's a Soghdian.

Anxi (安西)
Centered in Kucha (龜茲 Qiuci), and controlled the rest of the Tarim Basin. There were two jiedushi around that time and there seems to be no information on when the succession occurred. The earlier one was Erzhu Mou (爾朱某), the latter one was Guo Xin (郭昕), nephew of the Tang general Guo Ziyi (郭子儀).

Source of names and offices:

https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/喻安西北庭諸將制


https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/賜李元忠郭昕詔

I actually had the chance to go to Guo Ziyi's memorial in Taiwan a year ago. They have like three encyclopedic volumes of family heraldry. Not sure how much of it is made up, but it was pretty surprising.

I took pictures of his family tree:

GedSA8Cq--zd9qCVheoYeJFMU8mN4WJEVZW8KveuF9XtjLo9SIcvcKHqPstSBZx-JxLizJY9uT1VUPZSsKXWWyVNB-mnAtb1ivtFpSa0imMJVhB4Qm4PBrKYs7a2CfeGGUjwIR_PEqXx_XtuWsv4moVrc6_rS-TvSIoXnYhHNrzYCWKGuKcJWd7O405jsrEVzhf0ryKtCa6bfPZ1D123AzD89FRtL57DsTPkwd37OhgUhfCmkQV5fG1v9ADG0cjKrYwToMgUaGzWxWqJY1l_PsGyCb_TUTjEVbzVY6nMMyCbCxSs8XdP-ca52u5fPv4dh3zmt92HRIHej0vsqMCMLeIBspqr2X7CjPa4beY-n85QrnP2DY0ANcAGsADJzIgeWgbzh-4XPoWTyCcWyJESl2plqGyQTjExAup-KmIdeQApfbeZGhCcH_gKS7Uh373a9Og8ZKGK9f993mHRhAmxujezgF_k8YOF6j6NKyK9grxKCe3z2Oywn-sa0D1FdSNpjHNPlFjeifLF4INROCU6TX5QaxgkvTNlacVw5xNoZ37gbp4kJibdM-w66zwiSRRwEVZYNY3_Y1RZ6bu-PWHHJxFPPP_rP6NR4i9G268Fzxd2ysaHLr-C=w1689-h950-no


Here's the crest of Fenyang, which was Guo Ziyi's official title:

Rhiqa5B.jpg
 
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OMG. The game barely runs now and both CK2+ and HIP allow to exclude India for better performance and you're expanding the map AGAIN?

The game will be slower than a snail going through iconic state of slowmo bullet time. There are much more interesting things to add and fix than just another pointless patch of land.

Downvote all you want.
If you want better performance stop using CK2+ or HIP, since A Both mods add counties, B both add a ton of events and decisions that the AI goes through nonstop that slow down the game, and C SoI and HL did not slow the game and they have already made the game run about the same if not better than release so you need to calm down, you are being overly dramatic to the point of satire. This is not China you can tell since Tibet is the edge of the map, it will be fine.
 
Hell no, I can just hear the pope yelling:

Pope Alexander IV said:
I call a crusade for Tibet !

Sounds reasonable after the last one for Orissa completely failed !

This is how it looks like when Wales and Scotland declare Holy Wars in India.
Scotland and Wales HWfIndia.jpg

By the way, they both have enough ships in their coastal provinces to ship in the whole continental european levies at once...
 
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Since the world is changed to more closely resemble its original counterpart, I take the opportunity to remind the mapmakers, that the vanilla city of Köln is still on the wrong side of the Rhine. This may be resolved by having c_köln it sit on both banks of the river. Here, have an old map:
On this map you can see Köln and its medieval walls. Deutz on the other side of the Rhine is where the game has placed the settlement.
100267_026_2.jpg
Koblenz is MiA. If you can return it to it's home where the Mosel flows into the Rhein I will be very happy. Before anyone claims that it wasn't there, the city has started its career as a roman fortress in 8 BC.
As you can see, the city is nested between the Mosel to the north and the Rhine to the east.
1280px-Karte_Mittelalterliche_Stadtmauer_Koblenz.jpg
Also, Trier in real life sits on the eastern side of the Mosel. Unlike CK2, where it somehow ended up on the wrong side of the river. Trier claims to be Germany's oldest city. It does, because it was a city even in roman times, whereas the other roman originated settlements started their career as fortresses.
Map of Trier during late roman times. The city went trough many changes, but after all this time, it's still here.
100268_028_2.jpg
Mainz is drunk, instead of being on the western side of the river, opposite to where the Main is going into the Rhein, the city sits north/east if it?
The Rhein itself is doing weird things. I know, this was during the introduction of navigable rivers. (The best rivers) But the disjointed part with the double Rhein where the county of Mainz sits ingame gets me every time. It's like an accident. For reference, actual Rhein:
The entire river. As you can see, the Rhein is actually connected with the Bodensee.
Rhein-Karte2.png
I suggest making most of the Rhein navigable. At least until Basel. Even then, the one thing, that's preventing you from reaching the Bodensee is the Rheinfall, a waterfall near Castle Laufen. Very beautiful sight.
Now I wouldn't be writing this, if I didn't trust you guys. You did a good job with the Danube in Hungary and soon you will add Tibet. I know you are capable of doing a fix to this river.
You even made the Balkans look relatively nice.
I understand that making an accurate map of the Holy Roman Empire is no simple task either.
At one point you have to simplify, else you end up with this:
1250. This isn't even its final form. But its greatest territorial expansion.
HeiligesRoemischesReich1250.jpg

You know, I'm still surprised that England gets a higher county density than this behemoth.
 
Honestly, it wasn't even the focus of the first game. That game modeled Crusades even worse, and even most of the contemporary marketing focused on the gameplay of playing feudal rulers. It may be fair to say the original title was originally focused on Europe, but using the game's title as an argument doesn't seem like a good idea.

Call of Duty - Run around a map killing people with absolutely zero regard for rules of engagement, mission objectives or the directions or orders of anyone in authority

Grand Theft Auto V - Rob banks, knock off liquor stores and use the money to pimp out your one super expensive legally bought vehicle

World of Warcraft - Play on tiny corner of a tiny map and fight, trade and explore the wilderness

HALO - Play as a trooper that never, ever executes a High Altitude Low Opening parachute jump

Spore - Play as a tiny animal and evolve into a much bigger animal by having sex, not releasing spores
 
This is not China you can tell since Tibet is the edge of the map, it will be fine.
You are likely right, but there is still the possibility. If so the map wont actually expand until the DLC and it's free patch comes out. Also I have to say I find very funny that all the anti china are out in force, with all their silly arguments, in a post done by one of the game developers. Anti-china folks, if china is coming, if, you're not going to change the developers minds.
 
Hi folks!

PDXCON 2017 is over and it was fantastic to meet so many of you! I got a lot of interesting suggestions and feedback on our games, including, of course, CK2. So, a special thank you goes out to those of you who were there!

Now then, let’s talk a bit about those ugly gray areas on the map; the wastelands. Aesthetically, I’ve never liked the gray color of wasteland provinces in the non-Terrain map modes, so I took some time to change it so that wasteland is now always shown as Terrain, regardless of map mode (we might add options for this in the settings. Let me know what you think!)

Northern Siberia and the Sahara deserve to be wasteland; it’s difficult to do anything more about that (we’ve already twisted and manipulated the map projection, etc.) However, the Himalayas and the vast Tibetan plateau are a different story… Though mountainous, the region contains many important population centers and religious sites and has a rich history of interaction with China, India and Central Asia. In essence, the only reason it’s a “wasteland” in CK2 is that we haven’t prioritized doing it justice.

View attachment 265728
Tibet, 1066. Note that any green Coat of Arms are placeholders.


I’ve never been happy with the way the eastern edge of the map feels like the edge of the world when, in fact, it should be a dynamic hub connecting at least four major civilizations (China, India, the Steppe Nomads and the Islamic world.) Well, the time to do something about that is now! In our working build, we have added the necessary provinces, new cultures (Bodpa, Tangut and Nepalese), new religions (Bön and Khurmazta), and title history for the entire region.

View attachment 265726
The Himalayan mountains, 867.

The Bön religion is a pagan faith which functionally has many similarities with the Romuvan and Buddhist religions: It is very hard to convert, has access to Gavelkind, and unlike other pagan faiths it can not be reformed (though this might change in the future.) Instead, it starts off with the ability to designate heirs, just like Buddhists. It has also got a Patron Deity system like that of the Hindus and the “defensive” Pagans.

View attachment 265727
Purang, one of the Bön religion's Holy Sites.


In addition, we are looking over the great Muslim conquerors (Sabuktigin, Seljuq and Timur) to make sure they usually rise, toning down the Indian Holy Orders and making them creatable (rather than existing from the start.) We also plan to add or expand on adventurers for more generic conquests into and out of the subcontinent especially.

There is more, but that would be revealing too much too soon. :) Stay tuned for the next dev diary!

EDIT: Todays livestreams are cancelled due to attrition from PDXCON.
Great!!! I have been waiting to play in Eastern asia. Hey Paradox I will defniitely buy the expansion whethere it is double or triple the usual DLC price if you guys add the whole Asia map in the game.. I promise this.
 
People it's not going to be all of Asia, just a filling of the grey areas currently on the map.

Stop getting your hopes up when it's been demonstrated that unless you completely turn whole countries around, it would be impossible to implement all of Asia into the game