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CK2 Dev Diary #53: Time to pay Tribute

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk to you about a part of the game that we’ve chosen to overhaul and improve - the Tributary system! Introduced in Horse Lords, the ‘Make Tributary’ CB allowed you to go to war with a neighboring realm to make them pay you 40% of their income until the death of your current character. It was quite a simple system that didn’t always fit the intended purpose very well, so we decided to make it more advanced and capable of diverse use!

Tributaries can now come in a lot of flavors, as they are entirely definable in a new ‘tributary_types’ file. You define a name and then you set the parameters for how you would like the Tributary to work. You are able to customize a lot of things, for example; the various tribute percentages, if the Tributary should be set free on death or if the Suzerain must defend the Tributary in wars.

With this new system we have lots of ideas on where we could add new types of Tributaries, i.e. Permanent Tributaries or Nomad Tributaries. If you have any ideas for a type of Tributary (and when it would make sense to have it/when to gain access to the CB) feel free to post a suggestion in this thread!

To demonstrate, here’s the script for an example Tributary type:

Code:
example = {                                # name used for that type of tributary. "default" is the standard type, replacing the old tributaries, and "none" is reserved and should not be used
    tributary_name = TRIBUTARY_DEFAULT_NAME        # localization string used for tributaries of that type (ie "Tributary" for the default type, "Permanent Tributary" for the Permanent type, etc)
    tributary_plural = TRIBUTARY_DEFAULT_PLURAL    # localization string used for tributaries of that type, when there is more than one (ie "Tributaries" for the default type, "Permanent Tributaries" for the Permanent type, etc)
    suzerain_name = SUZERAIN_DEFAULT_NAME        # localization string used for suzerains of that tributary type (ie "Suzerain" for the default type, "Permanent Suzerain" for the Permanent type, etc)
    tribute_name = TRIBUTARY_DEFAULT_TRIBUTE    # localization string used for "paying $TRIBUTE$" for that tributary type
    breaks_at_suzerain_death = yes        # yes/no value determining if the tributary relationship is dissolved when the suzerain dies.
    breaks_at_tributary_death = no         # yes/no value determining if the tributary relationship is dissolved when the tributary dies
    suzerain_must_defend = no             # yes/no value determining if the suzerain is forced to accept calls to arms from tributary in defensive wars (wars were the tributary is the defender)
                                        # if they decline anyway, they will lose the tributary and an amount of prestige defined in defines.lua, called SUZERAIN_DEFENDER_CALL_DECLINE_COST
    tributary_can_be_summoned = yes     # yes/no value determining if the suzerain can calls the tributaries to war (as tribal vassals / allies)   
    tributary_must_defend = yes            # yes/no value determining if the tributaries are forced to accept defensive calls to arms
    tributaries_can_infight = yes        # yes/no value determining if the tributaries can fight against each others, if both tributaries are of the same type
                                        # if tributaries are of different types, they will always be allowed to fight each other, even if they have the same suzerain
    suzerain_can_join_infighting = yes    # yes/no value determining if the suzerain can join a tributary in a war against another
    tributaries_can_unite = no             # yes/no value determining if, when trying to break, the tributaries can band together against the suzerain, à la major revolt
    breaks_on_realm_change=yes            # yes/no value determining if the tributary relationship is dissolved when the tributary's titles change realms
    cbs_against_suzerain = {            # list of CBs tributaries can use against their suzerain
        free_tributary_cb
    }
    income_tribute_percentage = {        # how much of their monthly income the tributary must pay to their suzerain.
                                        # THIS IS ONLY EVALUATED WHEN THE TRIBUTARY RELATIONSHIP IS FORMED
                                        # and is not reevaluated afterwards
                                        # this value is an MTTH and should compute a value between 0 and 1, inclusive
                                        # in case the total is less than 0, it will be counted as 0
                                        # in case the total is more than 1, it will be counted as 1
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain
        value = 0.10
        additive_modifier = {
            value = 0.05
            FROM = {
                is_merchant_republic = yes
            }
        }
    }
    reinforce_tribute_percentage = {    # How much of the tributary's reinforcement rate will go to the suzerain's instead.
                                        # THIS IS ONLY EVALUATED WHEN THE TRIBUTARY RELATIONSHIP IS FORMED
                                        # and is not reevaluated afterwards
                                        # this value is an MTTH and should compute a value between 0 and 1, inclusive
                                        # in case the total is less than 0, it will be counted as 0
                                        # in case the total is more than 1, it will be counted as 1
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain

                                        # this is applied by subtracting the percentage, as is, from the tributary's reinforcement rate
                                        # and adding a scaled (based on demesne size= version of the percentage to the suzerain
                                        # So, for example, the tributary loses 10% of reinforcement rate, but the suzerain gains 10% * (tributary's demesne size) / (suzerain's demesne size)
        value = 0.10
        additive_modifier = {
            value = 0.05
            FROM = {
                is_merchant_republic = yes
            }
        }
    }
    prestige_to_suzerain = {            # how much of prestige the suzerain gains every month per tributary (of that type) he holds
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the suzerain's prestige every month.
                                        # current scope is the suzerain, FROM is the tributary
        value = 0
    }
    prestige_to_tributary = {            # how much prestige the tributary gains every month
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the tributary's prestige every month.
                                        # to make them lose prestige, return a negative value
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain
        value = 0
    }
    piety_to_suzerain = {                # how much of piety the suzerain gains every month per tributary (of that type) he holds
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the suzerain's piety every month.
                                        # current scope is the suzerain, FROM is the tributary
        value = 0
    }
    piety_to_tributary = {                # how much of piety a tributary gains every month
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the tributary's piety every month.
                                        # to make them lose piety, return a negative value
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain
        value = 0
    }
}

I’d also like to expand upon something we touched upon in the last DD; the new ‘unjust conquest’ CB (now renamed to Border Dispute). When declaring a Border Dispute over a County you first and foremost have to pay an upfront cost of Piety and Gold scaled to your tier (in the case of Pagans, prestige is used), but you also take an opinion hit from both your religious head (if you have one) as well as any landed characters of the targeted religious group in both your realm and the one you’re attacking. Note that these opinion modifiers stack! This makes the border Dispute CB dangerous to use on characters of your own religion, especially if you have a religious head capable of excommunicating you. You will primarily want to use this CB to expand early on when drawing the ire of your co-religionists is worth the risk, or against characters not of your religion.

Border_dispute_tooltip.png

Example is of an Irish Count wanting to conquer another Irish Count.


Note that Muslims, Nomads and in certain cases Pagans do not have access to this CB, as their current CB’s are already superior. It is also possible to turn the CB off entirely by using Game Rules.
Border_dispute_GR.png


Note that we’ve also decided to leave Fabricate Claim as it is right now.
 
Yes, the Baqt was basically a (light) tributary arrangement. The Christians and Muslims in Iberia had the same type of treaties, just shorter term. I think it would help both areas a LOT.

Interesting. I did not know about that. That's really interesting, and I would love to see it represented in game somehow.

Thank you!
 
Surely, but in current CK2 realisation where is no way to persuade beaten and besieged ruler to allow you to marry someone of his family. And if your dynasty is of different religion, task is impossible at all.

Casus belli 'force marriage' would be OK.
Well the thing is that while royal marriages have been used to anchor a peace I can't think of a single war to ever be fought to force a marriage. Don't think the pope would stand for it.
 
Tributaries can now come in a lot of flavors, if the Suzerain must defend the Tributary in wars.
Code:
    tributaries_can_infight = yes        # yes/no value determining if the tributaries can fight against each others, if both tributaries are of the same type
Does this turn off the Suzerain from joining one side of the infighting tributaries? An option to keep the Suzerain outside of tributary wars is extremely important to me for modding purposes.

Stronger Suzerains curbing the growth of all their infighting vassals has been a major problem for me and my mods ever since tributaries came out. The ability to force the suzerain not to take sides would be extremely useful.
 
Well the thing is that while royal marriages have been used to anchor a peace I can't think of a single war to ever be fought to force a marriage. Don't think the pope would stand for it.

I can remember one good example of war fought especially to force a marriage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Brittany

"At the age of thirteen, on 19 December 1490, she married Maximilian I of Austria at Rennes Cathedral by proxy The French regarded it as a serious provocation. King Charles VIII of France came to lay siege to Rennes, where Anne stayed, in order to force her to desist from her Habsburg marriage.
After two months of siege, without assistance and unable to resist any longer, Rennes fell. Charles VIII entered in the city and both parties signed the Treaty of Rennes, ending the fourth military campaign of the French over Brittany. After refusing all proposed marriages with French princes, Anne became engaged to the King on 17 November 1491. Then, escorted by her army, Anne went to Langeais to be married. Austria made diplomatic protests (especially before the Holy See), claiming that the marriage was illegal because the bride was unwilling, that she was already legally married to Maximilian, and that Charles VIII was legally betrothed to Margaret of Austria, Maximilian's daughter.

The official marriage between Anne and King Charles VIII of France was celebrated in the Great Hall of the Langeais on 6 December 1491 at dawn. The ceremony was concluded discreetly and urgently because it was technically illegal until Pope Innocent VIII, in exchange for substantial concessions, validated the union on 15 February 1492 and granted the annulmen to the previous marriage with Maximilian and also give the dispensation for the marriage with Charles VIII.
"

So it is an example of military campaign which served exclusively to the purpose of forcing Anne to marry French King or French princes and therefore cement union of Brittany and France.
 
I can remember one good example of war fought especially to force a marriage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Brittany

"At the age of thirteen, on 19 December 1490, she married Maximilian I of Austria at Rennes Cathedral by proxy The French regarded it as a serious provocation. King Charles VIII of France came to lay siege to Rennes, where Anne stayed, in order to force her to desist from her Habsburg marriage.
After two months of siege, without assistance and unable to resist any longer, Rennes fell. Charles VIII entered in the city and both parties signed the Treaty of Rennes, ending the fourth military campaign of the French over Brittany. After refusing all proposed marriages with French princes, Anne became engaged to the King on 17 November 1491. Then, escorted by her army, Anne went to Langeais to be married. Austria made diplomatic protests (especially before the Holy See), claiming that the marriage was illegal because the bride was unwilling, that she was already legally married to Maximilian, and that Charles VIII was legally betrothed to Margaret of Austria, Maximilian's daughter.

The official marriage between Anne and King Charles VIII of France was celebrated in the Great Hall of the Langeais on 6 December 1491 at dawn. The ceremony was concluded discreetly and urgently because it was technically illegal until Pope Innocent VIII, in exchange for substantial concessions, validated the union on 15 February 1492 and granted the annulmen to the previous marriage with Maximilian and also give the dispensation for the marriage with Charles VIII.
"

So it is an example of military campaign which served exclusively to the purpose of forcing Anne to marry French King or French princes and therefore cement union of Brittany and France.
Yeah but that was the very specific case of the actual ruler of the duchy being an unmarried woman. It was basically a land grab.
 
Will there be further tweaks to the opinion maluses? Seems odd to me that if I am playing as a Cathar, if I declare on a Catholic count the maluses applicable to landed Catholics and other Cathar rules would be the same, as we're all in the Christian religion group. That said, Cathar's not having a religious head may well benefit most from this anyway.

I'd like if the opinions were based on personality traits.
  • Another ruler in the same de jure kingdom as both you and the target,
  • same religion as you
  • far more positive opinion of you than your Border Dispute target (eg you're targetting a rival of theirs)
  • This ruler has the arbitrary trait?
    • Fire an event where they've a low chance to lose arbitrary, and the opinion malus occurs with you as usual
    • Or they keep arbitrary and get a fraction of the gold spent on the Border Dispute war, but no opinion malus effect.
Similar: a ruler in the region with both craven and just may either join the war on the defenders side and lose craven, or ignore it, with a chance of either gaining patient or losing just.
 
Would having the Religious differences (related religion) (-10) be able to negate this? So having a realm of heretics or something allowing you keep conquering without the penalty stacking?
 
I agree, but wouldn't it be to easy for Mercia in 769 to form England early?
They would be a bit weakier than if they formed England in the old fashioned way (since they would integrate quite a lot of dukes who would most probably not like them that much), so the kingdom would be quite unstable for a while
well forming the Kingdom by having tributaries wouldn't integrate them, though it would give that tiny boost to diplo vassalizing, but as Affame mentioned, that means integrating large(and therefore dangerously influential) duchies that you'll likely have issues braking up once they're inside your domain.
 
well forming the Kingdom by having tributaries wouldn't integrate them, though it would give that tiny boost to diplo vassalizing, but as Affame mentioned, that means integrating large(and therefore dangerously influential) duchies that you'll likely have issues braking up once they're inside your domain.
Well there's still a relative power thing when it comes to offer vassalization right?
 
Well there's still a relative power thing when it comes to offer vassalization right?
that too, along with overcoming any hatred they may have for you, though depending on how the province requirements are rebalanced for when tributaries are being used, it's likely you are already more powerful then them(you did beat them into tributary status in the first place after all), and of course once you have the kingdom title you can just start declaring De Jure wars on them all, though that might take time and energy you don't have or want to save for other things...

EDIT: also maybe forming Kingdoms using Tributaries rather then already ruling the lands will make it start with lower crown authority, centralization, or other such laws.
 
that too, along with overcoming any hatred they may have for you, though depending on how the province requirements are rebalanced for when tributaries are being used, it's likely you are already more powerful then them(you did beat them into tributary status in the first place after all), and of course once you have the kingdom title you can just start declaring De Jure wars on them all, though that might take time and energy you don't have or want to save for other things...

EDIT: also maybe forming Kingdoms using Tributaries rather then already ruling the lands will make it start with lower crown authority, centralization, or other such laws.
I myself tried to mod something like that a long time ago (well right after horse lords came out), but I couldn't get the thing to compute properly, what I needed was to get the game to add dejure provinces held by either me a vassal or a tributary, and then compare it to the total dejure provinces under the title. I can't really remember why I had to abandon it, but I think it had something to do with the way the game handles variables.

And well not necessarily, you could have had event spawned troops or another such advantage that went away over time. Also since you can call your tributaries once you start getting them it can snowball, but your own power really doesn't grow. Having tried similiar solutions I can tell you that there isn't a massive amount of diplo vassalizing happening when you allow someone to take a kingdom title early.
Also another limiting factor I like is if you lost a tributary war (either defensive of offensive) to someone of lower tier they get a strong claim on your primary title. That means that the crown may shift around a lot in these early days.
 
Where does it go when you fabricate claim?

Bribes to local officials and Churchmen, possibly it goes directly towards the cost of forging a deed or charter.

Historically claims were actually fabricated, it was an actual practice which required false documents and often false witnesses.

"Oh yes, this has been in our monastery for decades! See, the seal of King Aethelstan!"
 
Nice DD! I especially liked your saving throw on the Border War CB to make it seem less like an overpowered way for small realms to expand. I hope it will make playing in Ireland less tedious.

Regarding tributaries: I feel this is one of those mechanics which could be greatly expanding and I am pleased you are doing just that. I would like to see the possibility of establishing tributaries through diplomatic actions as well. Here are some tributary relations I would like to see implemented:

Perpetual tribute: Same as the regular system, but it doesn't break automatically upon the death of the suzerain. Instead there is an event which gives the tributary a chance to stop paying tribute, but gives the former suzerain claims on the tributary's territory (this could be balanced somewhat to stop ridiculousness, e.g. not giving the HRE a claim on the entirety of France).

Non-aggression: Both sides sign a non-aggression pact, but neither side is obliged to come to the other's aid in a war, you're just paying money not to be attacked. This form of relation could only be achieved through a diplomatic action, not war.

Danegeld: Bribe viking/other raiders not to attack you. It comes with a large one-off payment which establishes a truce between the two realms which disallows any raiding between them. The size of the payment depends on the wealth of the two realms in question (so, for example, Wessex would have to pay more money to Svithjod than East Anglia would have to pay to Nidaros). This would balance out not having to pay exorbitant tributes to all the little viking powers in Scandinavia.