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CK2 Dev Diary #67: Revisiting the Middle East

Greetings everyone!

I’m Emil “Servancour” Tisander. Most of you might remember me from the update I did to Hungary and the Danube with the release of 2.7. This time however, I wanted to do something of a larger scope, and with the expansion focusing on the eastern part of the map, what better time to revisit the Middle East and bring it a much needed overhaul?

Those of you who watch the streams might already have seen most of what I’ll show you here but I’ll start by explaining what I’ve done and why.

I had a few goals in mind when I started working on the update. First and foremost I wanted to improve the overall geography and move counties to where they are supposed to be. Some having been placed much too far from their actual location (I’m looking at you Damascus). Secondly, there are plenty of titles in the region that are inappropriately named for the time period, so I wanted to go through what makes sense and what doesn’t to improve the historical accuracy as much as possible. Another thing I wanted to do was to split up the kingdom of Persia somewhat. Persia in CK2 has always been a very large kingdom. Splitting it up into several kingdoms will allow for a more dynamic experience.

Empires remain very much the same, though both the Persian Empire and the Arabian Empire have been increased somewhat in size, due to the addition of new counties. Kingdoms however, have been changed quite significantly. The following kingdoms have been added or renamed accordingly:
Added the kingdoms of Daylam, Khorasan, Iraq and Yemen.
Renamed Mesopotamia to Al-Jazira, Afghanistan to Kabulistan, Baluchistan to Sistan, Khiva to Transoxiana.

01_kingdoms.png


The county layout is also something that you will notice has changed dramatically. Gone are all the weirdly shaped counties, that would either look like a square or be stretched into all manner of shapes. Every single county in the region has been moved and/or reshaped. The single most noticeable addition will be the Syrian desert. Which, in my opinion, is needed to make sure that the surrounding counties can be placed and shaped properly.

02_syrian_desert.png


As much as I would like to, I won’t go into detail for all changes I’ve done to the counties. But I’ll highlight some of the more major ones.

Both Fergana and Khuttal are now full-fledged duchies, with three and four counties, respectively.

03_fergana_khuttal.png


Several new counties have been added to Yemen, which consists of the duchies Sanaa, Taizz and Hadramut.

04_yemen.png


The duchy of Medina is renamed to Hijaz and got three new coastal counties added, making the duchy consist of six counties in total.

05_hijaz.png


We’ve also decided to increase the number of counties in the Tarim Basin, in order to make the area more fun and interesting to play in. It has about twice the number of counties compared to the old setup.

06_tarim_basin.png

07_tarim_basin.png


That’s some of the biggest changes that you’ll see on the map which is, as always for map updates, a part of the free 2.8 patch. Bear in mind that it’s still a bit of a work in progress. Some counties are likely to get another set of name changes and other tweaks.

Finally, I would like to give a shout out to @elvain, who helped me with a lot of research. Making this update possible to do to such an extent.

Don’t forget to tune into the Medieval Monday streams 16:00-18:00 (CEST)! During which you can poke me if you want to see a specific region or have any other questions.
 
Such as?

Europe, Africa and Merchant Republics have been ignored, if you disagree name significant changes that only effected Europe.

This DLC's grand impact on you if you play in Europe is new tributary CBs.
There is currently a whole thread listing this (about Europe being abandonned by PDX with a handful of counter-examples). But to cite two, Europe got more flavour than others with monks and mystics. Conclave presents a mechanics which is more suited for representing european governance. Sorry I'm just citing the thread, but why bothering when everything is already there, presented way better than I could do.

About MR and Africa, we agree (playing MR/nomads more often than feudals, and preferring playing in the muslim and central asian worlds than Europe)
 
While you're changing this stuff, it would be a good time to add proper Arabic alternate cultural names for duchies and kingdoms. Formerly this wasn't a problem because they always took dynastic names (e.g. the Seljuk Sultanate instead of the Sultanate of Persia) but now that there's a game rule that lets you turn those off, you end up with Arabic realms using the English names.

In many situations the county names are appropriately translated but the duchies with the same names aren't. E.g. if you start in Muslim Spain, you can hold the province of Qurtuba but the duchy is called Cordoba. Same with Mallorca/Mayurqa, Ascalon/Asqalan, etc.

Just a few other suggestions for additional cultural names (I'd make a mod but I can't figure out how to make it ironman compatible):

Andalusia > Al-Andalus
Seville > Ishbiliyya
Jerusalem > Al-Quds
Oultrejourdain > Sharq al-Urdun
Galilee > Al-Jalil
Acre > Akka
This is just a case of localisations I guess. Normaly the regions should be called as they are, but if owned by Arabs, they could be localised.

Transoxiana is... problematic, meaning 'beyond the Oxus' which doesn't make sense if you start there.

Khwarezm or even Sogdiana would make more sense, though neither is perfect.
A valid point, but....
Using either of those names would then create another problem. It would be like calling the entire Germany Bavaria, Swabia or Franconia...
Even using Daylam as umbrella term for Caspian regions caused some people to complain, despite it - acording to contemporary sources - seems like the best solution.
Soghd was never used for anything beyond the region itself. Khwarazm - even in the times of Anushtiginid (Khwarezmian) empire was limited solely to Khwarazm. The same for Ferghana.
On the other hand, the region was either dominated by Persians and Arabs, who named it Fararud or Ma wara an-Nahr (or Mawarannahr or Mavaranahr) - both meaning the same as Transoxiana - , or the Turks. If the Turks were persianized (Seljuks and Anushtiginids), they also used Persian name Fararud or Mavaranahr. When the region fell firmly under Turkish domination, it became called Turan or West Turkestan.

These changes make me happy :)
Good job @Servancour and @elvain !
Glad to read this.

Such as?

Europe, Africa and Merchant Republics have been ignored, if you disagree name significant changes that only effected Europe.

This DLC's grand impact on you if you play in Europe is new tributary CBs.
While I do agree that Merchant republics and Africa are neglected, I can't agree about Europe.

Conclave was built around exclusively European courts (ignoring the rich and very interesting courtly culture of Byzantine or Muslim world), M&M being predominantly focused on Catholics. The last 3 DLCs were all based on Europe and the way things worked in Europe. Yes, they do affect all others, but they only apply European customs there.

If something is made general in CK2 affecting the entire map, it in fact means, it is European (though there of course are exceptions, like very few societies given to other religions, but for instance the sufi orders - a largely requested perfect representation of religious societies - were totally ignored). That's the case of all general DLCs (affecting everything).
OTOH, the only way the extra-European territories get some love are region/religion specific DLCs. And when such a DLC appears, there's this kind of whinning that Europe is ignored. Come one. It isn't. It gets by far the most love in this game (and it's totally fine IMHO). I just don't think it's wrong if also some other region receives some love.
 
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Conclave being built around exclusively European courts, M&M being predominantly focused on Catholics. The last 3 DLCs were all built around Europe and the way things worked in Europe. Yes, they do affect all others, but in fact they impose european feudal domination over those regions.
If something is made general in CK2 affecting the entire map, it in fact means, it is European (though there of course are exceptions, like very few societies given to other religions, but for instance the sufi orders - a largely requested perfect representation of religious societies - were totally ignored). All general DLCs (affecting everything) are European and the only way the extra-European territories get some love are region/religion specific DLCs. And when such a DLC appears, there's this kind of whinning that Europe is ignored. Come one. It isn't

Conclave effected the whole map equally it added to everyone, because it wasnt localized enough to your liking doesn't change the fact that it was a universal DLC.

M & M gave catholics 2 identical groups that functioned the same as every other religion besides Shia's assasins.

WoL again affected everyone equally.

India, the Middle East, and the Steppes are more dynamic and fleshed out because they have been receiving new DLC tailored to those areas.
 
but for instance the sufi orders - a largely requested perfect representation of religious societies - were totally ignored)
In this way, there are great upcoming things for Islam in EU4, with the addition of the Islamic Schools ^^ . Maybe it would be correctly represented with the monastic orders mechanics??? or not at all? (open question)

India, the Middle East, and the Steppes are more dynamic and fleshed out because they have been receiving new DLC tailored to those areas.
Which barely bring them to the point where Europe currently is in terms of representation (although I appreciate very much the efforts, and enjoy playing there).

Alright rework Africa and add in the northern mongols around lake bikal and the map should be just about set!
I would love the see the Oirats, and even more so, the Buryats ^^
 
This is simply outstanding, can't wait for this!

I'm just sad that Egypt didn't get a makeover, more provinces around the Nile, and a new shape for the Kingdom would be nice. Like it is in the new update for EU4.
Anyway, this is fantastic!
 
Conclave effected the whole map equally it added to everyone, because it wasnt localized enough to your liking doesn't change the fact that it was a universal DLC.

M & M gave catholics 2 identical groups that functioned the same as every other religion besides Shia's assasins.

WoL again affected everyone equally.

India, the Middle East, and the Steppes are more dynamic and fleshed out because they have been receiving new DLC tailored to those areas.
You seem to be missing the point.
Because that's what I was saying: They all affected all equaly by giving them European features.

They weren't exclusively European by not affecting anything else than Europe, but by using almost entirely European mechanics only.
And then because these universal DLCs apply European customs everywhere, the only way the extra-Europeans get their flavour is region-specific DLCs.

I don't like this approach. For instance, I was suggesting a Desert tribes DLC, which has mechanics, which are generalized enough to be benefitial for much larger area than one region, while still adding specific flavour.
For instance introduction of clan features, which can represent Desert tribes from Arabia or North Africa as well as Daylamire mountaineers, Irish or Scotch clans as well as Georgian or Armenian clan structure. There I suggest general Scholarly institutions which have 2 versions with only tiny differences, one fitting catholic Universities, one fitting muslim Madrasas.. It includes mechanics for Inland republics, which simulate the Fuggers of Augsburg as well as the Muqqari family prominent in Trans-Saharan trade.. or religious Military movements which - with tiny adjustments/localisations - can represent playable military orders such as Templars or Hospitaliers as well as the Almoravids, the Almohads.. the Cathars as well as the Qarmatian movement.
That way for instance a DLC centered around Africa and the Desert can offer grand enrichment to the entire map, yet not doing what these universal DLCs do by imposing European stuff on everyone else.
 
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You seem to be missing the point.
Because that's what I was saying: They all affected all equaly by giving them European features.

They weren't exclusively European by not affecting anything else than Europe, but by using almost entirely European mechanics only.
And then because these universal DLCs apply European customs everywhere, the only way the extra-Europeans get their flavour is region-specific DLCs.

I don't like this approach. For instance, I was suggesting a Desert tribes DLC, which has mechanics, which are generalized enough to be benefitial for much larger area than one region, while still adding specific flavour.
For instance introduction of clan features, which can represent Desert tribes from Arabia or North Africa as well as Daylamire mountaineers, Irish or Scotch clans as well as Georgian or Armenian clan structure. There I suggest general Scholarly institutions which have 2 versions with only tiny differences, one fitting catholic Universities, one fitting muslim Madrasas.. It includes mechanics for Inland republics, which simulate the Fuggers of Augsburg as well as the Muqqari family prominent in Trans-Saharan trade.. or religious Military movements which - with tiny adjustments/localisations - can represent playable military orders such as Templars or Hospitaliers as well as the Almoravids, the Almohads.. the Cathars as well as the Qarmatian movement.
That way for instance a DLC centered around Africa and the Desert can offer grand enrichment to the entire map, yet not doing what these universal DLCs do by imposing European stuff on everyone else.

European mechanics of favors or needing council approval?

Almost every major DLC has either been focused on non-european countries or been a generic DLC.

The College of Cardinals is still beyond tedious, the Pope still loves to throw pointless crusades to Mongolia, and Crusades dont function like they did historically.

Also Merchant Republics are glitched to hell and back and are a European centric mechanic.

If Nomads were as buggy I doubt they would just stay that way for so long.
 
I didn't quite catch it because only a tiny sliver is visible. Is Socotra de jure in any existing mainland duchy now? If not, with the silk road changes and new CBs, that place will be fun.
 
It isn't a region I play in frequently enough to care for, but it's nice to see the Near East and adjacent regions getting some love.
 
Why can't you add Issyk-Kul lake? It is one of the biggest mountain lakes in Central Asia.
It definitely should be on map.

Soooooo... While you guys are making these lovely updates, any chance we can get the rivers and lakes missing from the Tibet and Tarim regions?

I don't remember where I read it or saw it but the lakes are an issue because of the way that ck2 manages bodies of water, so it is hard to add anything that is more elevated than sea level.
 
I don't remember where I read it or saw it but the lakes are an issue because of the way that ck2 manages bodies of water, so it is hard to add anything that is more elevated than sea level.

This. Water allways has to be on sea level. Which means that all lakes in Tibet would be big, ugly holes
 
Great work! Thank you both for taking the time to massively improve the map in this manner, hopefully more regions will be following in future updates. :)
 
Any chance that the Nile, Tigris and Euphrates become navigable just as the European rivers, Indus and Ganges are? It would make for both consistency and fun while playing as Norse.
 
Lest not forget ye naysayers that bemoan PDOX's neglect of Europe, an Africa DLC would naturally include Egypt, a major contender in Crusadery escapades under the Fatimids and Mamlukes, hence excuse enough to flesh out Crusades and Jihads. Make Egypt better, make trade interaction with subsaharan africa a thing and make Mali more in line with what it was. And obviously north africa needs reworking to properly reflect it's manpower and economic base. This would benefit European play in that Italians wouldent always decide to blob North Africa whilst also providing more interesting foes to the south + a new gold road to try cash in on if your in the med.