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CK2 Dev Diary #68: Taming the Dragon

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk about what you can do should you decide that being in the Emperor’s good graces isn’t a priority. While most characters will want to pay tribute to China in order to reap benefits over a longer time, certain characters would rather give that up for short-term gain - or simply think themselves a contender to the Middle Kingdom…

You can take Hostile Actions towards China by entering a special menu located next to the portrait of the Western Governor in the China Screen. In this menu you will exclusively find actions that in one way or another displeases the Emperor - the most basic of examples being the decision to declare a war to free yourself from being an Imperial Tributary.
Hostile Actions.png


The three most interesting Hostile Actions you can take are the following three ones; Raiding China, Forcing China to Open Up and Invading China.

Raiding China
This action can only be taken if you own a province within a certain Geographical region, which includes Tibet, Mongolia and Eastern India. When you choose to Raid China, you give up a portion of your Levy and Levy Regain Rate (Manpower if Nomadic), a significant chunk of your Trade Income should you own any Silk Road Trade Posts, and the ability to Pay Tribute or Ask for Boons. You will also lose a static amount of Grace every month you Raid China. Raiding China will also paint a target on your head - should China go on the warpath, they might just visit you first...

When Raiding China you will, each year, receive loot taken from the outskirts of the Middle Kingdom. A random amount of Gold, Prestige and other treasures can be found when Raiding, making the interaction particularly attractive for smaller realms (i.e. the tribal peoples in Northern Tibet) and Nomads (as they rely heavily on prestige, and lack many sources of income).

There are many potential outcomes when Raiding China, while most often you will receive a modest amount of gold and prestige, sometimes you will receive something altogether more rare - your raiders can bring home vast treasures, artifacts, siege engineers (of questionable loyalty), concubines or even beasts from the Chinese wilderness…
Raiding China.png


Forcing China to Open Up
If China should turn inwards and become Isolationist you might find your empire without the massive benefits of the Silk Road. If you’re strong enough, you can try and make China open up the Silk Road again. This can be done in a multitude of ways - all which start with you negotiating with them:

Peaceful Negotiation - The Emperor might demand something from you in exchange for opening up - for example that you become his Tributary, or that you send back all Chinese characters in your court, etc.

War - If negotiations fail, you can decide to attack China in order to make them open up. This will act much like a normal war against China, with them bringing in forces from China proper to teach you a lesson in humility.

Being Sovereign on the Silk Road - If you control enough of the Silk Road yourself, you might decide to simply open the Silk Road again. This will NOT please China, who might retaliate with military force.

Should you succeed in opening up the Silk Road you will become Favored in Trade for a significant amount of years, increasing your Trade Post income by 100%.

Invading China
Invading China is no easy task - and reserved exclusively for massive empires with vast armies. Similarly to the Mongols, Invading China can be seen as an ‘end-game boss’, only that the war is started on your terms - when you feel ready to take them on.

In order to Invade China it needs to be either Stable or in a Golden Age, as this war represents less of an opportunistic land-grab and more a clash of titans. As China isn’t on the map, you will not be able to seize the Dragon Throne for your own character - but you will be able to seize it for your Dynasty! Before declaring the invasion, you select a Dynasty member (who doesn’t stand to inherit any land) to be the pretender to the Middle Kingdom.
Invade China.png


For as long as the war is going on, you will have a massive penalty to your Levy Regain rate (simulating troops seizing China Proper). In response, China will send a massive force westwards to challenge your armies - this army is vast, composed of high-quality troops and led by the very best Chinese commanders. The war itself focuses on battles and supremacy on the battlefield, rather than sieges - you will not be able to win this type of war by blitzing the lands of the Western Protectorate (should it have any), and neither will China be able to win it by just sieging your holdings. Typically, you will have to defeat about 75% of China's forces, along with reclaiming everything they might have sieged from you, in order to secure a victory.

Long-time players of CK2 might be vary of such a war, as the AI in CK2 tended to gather up all their troops in one massive doomstack - either suiciding to attrition, or in the case of attrition-free troops steamroll the opposition. After having playtested the Invasion we decided to revamp the AI in situations where it commands vast amounts of troops - they will now try and respect supply limits, though they will still want to stick close to other units and support them in potential battles. The following screenshot displays the new behaviour:
Chinese Troops Arrive.png


This means that to defeat China, your best bet is to lure them into mountain passes or use other terrain to your advantage.

If you win the Invasion of China, you will receive VAST rewards. You will immediately get a massive amount of gold, grace, prestige and artifacts (including all top-quality Chinese artifacts). You will also personally take any land the Western Protectorate might have had in the west. Your pretender will rise to the throne of China, forming a new Chinese-style dynasty, and your dynasty will be guaranteed to rule for at the very least 200 years. For as long as your dynasty rules, all landed members of your dynasty will receive a significant amount of grace every month - allowing them to tap into the vast resources of China much more easily than they would otherwise. Having your Dynasty on the throne also (practically…) guarantees that China won’t ever take hostile actions against you or your Dynasty.
Turkish China.png


Note that in addition to these hostile actions, remember that you can always attack China with normal CBs, seizing the land of the Western Protectorate. That, however, is a thing you would be wise to do while China is suffering from some kind of disaster, as then they’ll be able to call upon much fewer troops than if they would be stable.
 
So every DLC is evil for you? That's stupid. expansions are important to expand a game. No game at release will be as good as a game which has the chance to be improved with dlc/expansion etc....

You explicitly asked me my opinion and then you mocked it.

You are a very rude person. Never speak to me again ever.
 
If the Pope become emperor of China, will he have a harem? Can the emperor have more then one harem? We don't have enough harem!

Serious question: How many new cultures do we have? What are they?
 
I have one minor complaint about this, and that is that you can't do as the Yuan did, and take over China when it's a fragmented mess.

Perhaps the system should allow less epic invasions of China when it's weakened, where Chinese resistance will be weaker, but the rewards will be smaller and the resulting dynasty will be less stable because it's essentially just creating one more claimant to a shattered throne. The Yuan overthrew three kingdoms, but they didn't last a century...
 
Realistically it would make for an easier transition of power, but you wouldn't realistically win in the first place. I also agree that it kind of breaks reality since ALL grand invaders of China invaded during times of turmoil. Mongolia, Manchu, Britain, Japan, nobody invaded when China was a functioning state.

They can have it so that a weakened China still puts up a good fight, since realistically conquering China was a long and bloody process even when China was in total chaos. It also allows for people who don't want cheese pan-continental empires to have a chance against China if they are smart with their commanders, strategy, tech, and internal stability. I mean, you should still be MAJOR to take on China, but it should be the likes of a centralized Caliphate, the Indian Empire, or the Roman Empire, and not Big-Red-Blob-Cheese-McGuffins
And you want to try to take RL China it took decades if not centuries.
 
finally, the update will give content to the game especially in the east, I'm tired of playing Mongolian !
 
I see. Then How about this? (I found this picture from Steam)

Does it mean a Germanic realm has owned some Silk Road provinces?

Well I can assure you nobody in China at that time know anything about Germans or the existence of HRE.

Maybe a German Crusader gained the Kingdom of Jerusalem? That would put them within range of China.
 
any chance we can support a rebellion in China rather than outright invading? I don't really want my Indian dynasty taking over China since it seems a little too far-fetched but I really liked the idea of supporting Chinese rebels in a civil war and marrying the new Imperial Family to create an economic powerhouse along the Silk Road.
I second this, supporting rebels and fomenting discontent to weaken China would be a great mechanic. Heck, I'd like a "support rebels" option in general.
 
I second this, supporting rebels and fomenting discontent to weaken China would be a great mechanic. Heck, I'd like a "support rebels" option in general.
Can't the spymaster already do something like that?
 
On a related but different note, what happens if two empires declare war on China at the same time? Can they each take a portion of China and then fight each other for the remainder, or does one 'win' first, and then have to face the second challenger?

I think that when you declare war on Chine it's no longer Stable.
 
I have one minor complaint about this, and that is that you can't do as the Yuan did, and take over China when it's a fragmented mess.

Perhaps the system should allow less epic invasions of China when it's weakened, where Chinese resistance will be weaker, but the rewards will be smaller and the resulting dynasty will be less stable because it's essentially just creating one more claimant to a shattered throne. The Yuan overthrew three kingdoms, but they didn't last a century...
I think there should be a game rule if invading China when it is unstable is possible
 
Late medieval warfare was centered around sieges, earlier warfare was generally decided in open battle.

And event driven battle system would be the most boring thing that I can imagine - zero player input and no way to affect the outcome. In any event that's not the way that these things went - the war would generally be fought on the border and if/when the "barbarians" ever got over the wall and into the heartland the campaign was virtually over.




Keep up the neg-rep farming, you're doing fantastic.




Who would have thought that a DLC called "Jade Dragon" would be all about China ?
Did you read what I wrote? The first DD about the new expansion was called "A reason for war", smartass
 
If the Pope become emperor of China, will he have a harem? Can the emperor have more then one harem? We don't have enough harem!

Serious question: How many new cultures do we have? What are they?
WHAT IF: A pious Pope who's Emperor of China does have a harem, which he never uses?
 
Yep, the Emperor's glorious harem is not the subject to the beliefs of a religion. The harem is far more important.
Would children born into the harem take precedance over children born before said character taking up the mantle of Emperor of China...for example those born in the Harem have a Born in the Purple like trait?
Im sorry im just not knowledgeable in this field of history so i wouldn't know.
 
The Catholic Emperor on the other hand is going to be educated in Chinese traditions and values in order to best understand how to rule China, so even the most European, white, and Catholic Emperor of China is going to basically be practicing a sinocized version of Catholic. God is still the one true God, the Pope is still the head of the Church, and he is slowly going to try and spread the good news through China, but he is going to be pragmatic enough to the point where he is effectively Confucian.


Good points.


A minor version of the same effect can be seen in Europe, with various pagan pre-Christian European traditions slowly grafted on to Catholicism during the conversion process (Yule festival, Oester celebrations, etc.)
 
Good points.


A minor version of the same effect can be seen in Europe, with various pagan pre-Christian European traditions slowly grafted on to Catholicism during the conversion process (Yule festival, Oester celebrations, etc.)
Modern european christianity owes much more than some festivities to paganism, it's very thought structure is part pagan part arian (Like in Arianism and arius nothing to do with Aryan) for a example the basic idea of the soul immortal of the body in it's own right is not a thing in the original christianity nor in judendom, in semitic or afroasiatic thought tradition it is god that through a miracle saves the soul. Also why there is no hell in the early versions because there is no need to those who god does not save simply die. Hell is thus imported from paganism due to the need for somewhere for wicked souls to go when people started believing that immortality of the soul was an inherent trait of the soul.
The devil as he appears in the original was merely a spirit who tempted jesus in the desert, tempted with promises of this world over the next world. The original has a very strong god and evil narrative but evil is the world and good is the immortal world of god. meeting paganism externalises this the devil becomes an actual being of supreme evil, separate from the concept of the world, but unlike the being gods in paganism who are all very human (the best and worst of them can be noble or cruel just like people) this syncretism inherits the absolute overtones of judendom and early Christianity, though later cultural works changed that too (For an example paradise lost).
There are very fundamental ways of thinking that diffrers between the middle eastern tradition and the european one. I wonder how far back it goes, could be as old as the divide between indoeuropeans and afroasiatic peoples. Inherited in the very languages we express ourselves in. Our ideas are always limited by how we can express them.
In many way Christianity owes more to paganism than to judendom or early Christianity. It's also at the heart of many of the religious schisms in the early days of the church, when Christianity was hidden it assimilated different things in different places, making the concept of one united doctrine almost impossible right from the get go. Part of why the east fell so quickly the the muslim conquests was that the muslim doctrine was closer to how people in that region already thought unlike the church that had been dominated from the indoeuropean latin and greek spheres for centuries. It's no coincidence that the Christianity that did linger was that which had already broken ties to the west, like the copts in egypt or the nestorians in syria/assyria.

I wonder how different islam became when it crossed into areas where people spoke indoeuropean languages like persia and anatolia. Though in the latter it had the advantage of coming along with a new language.

TLDR: Anyway syncretism always happens and is a very interesting subject.
 
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Oh that's why i think your player character should take the throne of china and get a new separate heir and your old heir will continue to rule the on map parts. It's basically the same thing the devs have set up but in reverse.

I think this should be the case:
  1. Players can either choose to install a relative OR install themselves. However, if they install themselves, they instantly abdicate to the playable heir. Then, when they, as Emperor of China, die, the SECOND heir (not you) inherits China, and so on, as long as there are lines. If, at any time, a landed character inherits China, they either abdicate and go to China, or their land is given to the Protectorate to Pacify the West. After the first installation, the second heir is installed any time that inheritance would give the player China.
  2. You should be able to conquer China at any time, whether or not China is stable. However, doing so during instability should give significantly less bonuses, Prestige, Artifacts, and so on to balance it, AND there should be a chance that your installed Emperor gets toppled in the chaos. That way, you have an incentive to attack a stablized China. The rewards for conquering a stable China or Golden Age China should be immense (as stated, they are, but EVEN BIGGER for Golden Age), while attacking an unstable China should be comparatively paltry with a chance of your claimant losing the throne.
  3. Should your dynasty's Chinese Empire fall into instability and a chance of losing the Celestial Throne come to pass, any landed member of the dynasty (including you) should be able to send money and men (men being represented by modifiers lowering your levies and such) to China to fight your Chinese Emperor cousin. The costs to do this are immense, but the more you do it, the better chance you have of keeping your family on the throne. You cannot do this if you conquered an unstable China (see the second point).
 
As I have said, I dont want DLC. So you are telling me to want the thing I dont want in order to get the other thing I dont want.

If you don't want expansion packs, don't buy them. Paradox nickels and dimes us for the additional content, but you only need to buy the stuff you want. Are Muslims your thing, but you don't give a rat about India? Buy "Sword of Islam" and leave "Rajas of India" behind. The same goes foreward, so on and so forth.

Steam Sales are your friend. I snag the unnecessary EPs during Steam Sales.

Remember, you can buy all two hundred fifty dollars' worth of CK2 and Expansion Packs at once for sixty dollars if you are patient enough for a Steam Sale. Sixty dollars is the average retail price for a console game!
 
If you bought CKII for it's historical accuracy than you made a terrible mistake. That should become obvious when Norse Scandinavia converts to Islam.

You are wrong. That is totally historically feasible.

There is nothing unrealistic about a nation converting because of missionaries. Most pagans (except perhaps those subjugated by the Teutonic Order) either converted of their own free will (e.g. Kievan Rus to Orthodoxy and Khazars to Judaism) or were conquered by someone who began instilling programs to promote the non-pagan faith (or they just killed the non-pagans off).

Did you know that both the Khazars and Kievan Rus had an ecumenical summit called to them, where multiple religious representatives were called to pitch their religion to them? Zoroastrians, Muslims, Jews, and Christians (among others) all showed up and debated. The Khazars chose Judaism after the council and the Russians chose Orthodox Christianity.

Keep in mind, the Ilkhanate and Chagatai Khantates BOTH converted to Islam after they were swayed by missionaries. There was at least one Nestorian Khagan of the Mongol Empire.

The Kievan Rus could easily have chosen Islam. The Khazars could have totally chosen Christianity.